Bikeman315

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Garfy

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There's no question that China "can" make quality components IF they want to but it won't be as cheap in cost. I'm certain they can, yet in many automotive replacement parts, they're just plain crappy. I wouldn't trust putting any MasterPro parts from O'reilly on my cars because they just fail so often and don't really meet OEM specs and quality.
 

503rwhp

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My entire point is that it's SAD when the "most American cars' can have HUGE amounts of it still from outside of the US. But Canada is American enough to count and be okay, but Mexico historically has been a big no-no and pisses people off even though they are ALSO part of North America? it's hypocritical.

You can't say it's totally cool for Cana da just because "they have done it longer" and are part of North America because that means that your ONLY problem with Mexico is that its newer. I mean Fords pumped cars out of Mexico for over 25 years at this point, when is it suddenly "Canada levels of okay"?
I think the impression that burns people is that Canada is a first world country that has manufacturing of automotive components that exists because of proximity and obvious geographical supply chain integration. Mexico is a 3rd world country that has manufacturing due to low labor rates and a lower level of government intervention into things like environmental compliance and safety. Plants are built in Mexico explicity because of low cost, to the detriment of middle class workers. In Canada this isn't the case. You can argue Mexico is a global export center because vehicles built there are subject to lower import duties than are American made vehicles. You'd be right. That's not why the Mexican plants were originally built though.
 

smoke_wagon_6g

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Well, close.....not saying 100%.

And really, tires shouldn't count.
What about computer chips? If Ford was affected by computer chip shortages it would make sense that other manufacturers were too.

You can't make those in-house.
 

Bikeman315

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What about computer chips? If Ford was affected by computer chip shortages it would make sense that other manufacturers were too.

You can't make those in-house.
But they can be produced in the United States.
If the question is “Is any USA made car made with 100% USA made parts” the answer has to include every single part on the car. This includes every nut, bolt, computer chip, and tires!

As far as a car being built 100 vertical (all parts made by the manufacturer) I doubt that has ever happened.
 


smoke_wagon_6g

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I think the impression that burns people is that Canada is a first world country that has manufacturing of automotive components that exists because of proximity and obvious geographical supply chain integration. Mexico is a 3rd world country that has manufacturing due to low labor rates and a lower level of government intervention into things like environmental compliance and safety. Plants are built in Mexico explicity because of low cost, to the detriment of middle class workers. In Canada this isn't the case. You can argue Mexico is a global export center because vehicles built there are subject to lower import duties than are American made vehicles. You'd be right. That's not why the Mexican plants were originally built though.
This is thoughtful. I would only disagree that the plants are to the detriment of workers in Mexico. Though maybe you meant in the US.

NAFTA requires companies to call out parts not made in the USA or Canada, and thus the US and Canada get mixed together. It gets hard then to determine what country a car can actually claim to hail from.

Others have tried, one example:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g25062312/american-car-brands/

To understand what's going on today, and nowhere is it more complicated than in the automotive industry, you have to do a lot of reading. You have to know business, trade, and macroeconomics.

Not this:

...So all i hear are excuses to avoid saying "brown people". I mean, you are OKAY if the whiter northern NOT THE USA country does it...
Did you just say "brown people?" You win, you are the least racist of all. :like:

And if you really think the only difference between Canada and Mexico is skin color you are lost.
 

Hack

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The entire "made in America" thing always bugs me. I think some people who own foreign cars that are partially assembled here use it to assuage the guilt.

Frankly, to me it's most important where the ownership of the company is - where the profits go. I don't typically care where a car or its pieces are made - Europe, China, Korea, USA, Mexico, Canada, etc. An argument can be made to avoid buying from countries with human rights violations such as China. I wouldn't disagree with that. If I were in an ownership position of a company I would certainly prefer not to profit from the suffering of others or to exploit others to make an extra buck.

The one exception is Japan. They sold cars at under cost here for a number of years to gain a reputation that they continue to ride. Economic warfare against US companies - that is one thing I won't forgive. I realize it was mostly in the 80s, but I can't let it go.
 

Bikeman315

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The entire "made in America" thing always bugs me. I think some people who own foreign cars that are partially assembled here use it to assuage the guilt.

Frankly, to me it's most important where the ownership of the company is - where the profits go. I don't typically care where a car or its pieces are made - Europe, China, Korea, USA, Mexico, Canada, etc. An argument can be made to avoid buying from countries with human rights violations such as China. I wouldn't disagree with that. If I were in an ownership position of a company I would certainly prefer not to profit from the suffering of others or to exploit others to make an extra buck.

The one exception is Japan. They sold cars at under cost here for a number of years to gain a reputation that they continue to ride. Economic warfare against US companies - that is one thing I won't forgive. I realize it was mostly in the 80s, but I can't let it go.
I look at it from a different perspective. I really do not care where the profits go. So long as my investments go up it doesn't matter whether the company is in Detroit, Tokyo, or Stuttgart.

What I do care about is where the manufacturing plants are. Plants located in the United States employee American workers who spend many of their hard earned dollars locally. This helps the local, and state economies. Just look at the economy around any US plant that has closed to see the suffering when this happens.

In South Carolina we have had BMW for many years up in Greenville. They have contributed a significant amount of time and money investing the the area. Same goes for Volvo in Ridgeville.

A couple of other points. Foreign brands that have plants here in the US do not do "partial assembly". They build the car from the ground up just like Ford or GM.

I do agree with you comment about "human rights violations" but it's a moot point. It's easy to say, almost impossible to do. Apple is an American company but my phone is made in China. What I would like to see is our government working with other countries to reduce and then eliminate all violations.
 

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What I do care about is where the manufacturing plants are. Plants located in the United States employee American workers who spend many of their hard earned dollars locally. This helps the local, and state economies. Just look at the economy around any US plant that has closed to see the suffering when this happens.
This.
 

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A couple of other points. Foreign brands that have plants here in the US do not do "partial assembly". They build the car from the ground up just like Ford or GM.

I do agree with you comment about "human rights violations" but it's a moot point. It's easy to say, almost impossible to do. Apple is an American company but my phone is made in China. What I would like to see is our government working with other countries to reduce and then eliminate all violations.
Ford doesn't build the Mustang "from the ground up" in Flatrock. There are many subassemblies that have been BUILT somewhere else. The same is true of most other companies.

I agree with your comments on the government doing things such as levying extra taxes on countries that have human rights violations or just plain making it illegal to import from those countries.
 

Hack

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I agree it's nice to employ people, but the difference is significant between the money made by assemblers versus the money made by ownership, management, engineers, marketing people, designers, etc.

So yes it's great to have an assembly plant locally - just like it's great to have a McDonald's on the corner. However, it's a lot better to have the headquarters be located nearby. The assemblers have decent jobs, but there are much better jobs in the company.
 

ice445

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There's no question that China "can" make quality components IF they want to but it won't be as cheap in cost. I'm certain they can, yet in many automotive replacement parts, they're just plain crappy. I wouldn't trust putting any MasterPro parts from O'reilly on my cars because they just fail so often and don't really meet OEM specs and quality.
It's still way cheaper to make a quality product in China than in other countries. I know Iphones are polarizing for some, but they are made to an exceptionally high standard in Chinese plants. We have to realize that China was turned into the world's factory, and they've been in that role for 30+ years now. Some of the best production and process engineers the world has ever seen oversaw this process. No use making something there if it doesn't meet the specs you want it to (and consistently as well).

The problem is, profit margins can be much higher by making it to a poorer standard, so many products are.
 

Bikeman315

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I agree it's nice to employ people, but the difference is significant between the money made by assemblers versus the money made by ownership, management, engineers, marketing people, designers, etc.

So yes it's great to have an assembly plant locally - just like it's great to have a McDonald's on the corner. However, it's a lot better to have the headquarters be located nearby. The assemblers have decent jobs, but there are much better jobs in the company.
This isn't just about salaries its about local economies. Ford has six plants in the United States, they have one HQ. The Kansas City plant alone has more employees than HQ (over 7000).

Also each of these plants have a lot more than "just" assemblers. There are many levels of employees from management to cleaning staff at each one. Every one of those people spend their money in their local neighborhoods enriching the hometowns. HQ is in Central Detroit. Now many of the workers, most of them probably, work in the suburbs but it's still not the same.

By the way, let's keep in mind that a lot of parts are made on US soil. Many of these suppliers are in close proximity to the plants thereby further enriching the local economies.

Here are the 6 US plants.
  • Chicago, IL: Ford Explorer, Ford Taurus, Lincoln MKS
  • Flat Rock, MI: Ford Fusion, Ford Mustang
  • Kansas City, MO: Ford F-150, Ford Transit
  • Louisville, KY: Ford Escape, Lincoln MKC
  • Wayne, MI: Ford Focus, Ford C-Max
  • Avon Lake, OH: Ford E-Series
 

Hack

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This isn't just about salaries its about local economies. Ford has six plants in the United States, they have one HQ. The Kansas City plant alone has more employees than HQ (over 7000).

Also each of these plants have a lot more than "just" assemblers. There are many levels of employees from management to cleaning staff at each one. Every one of those people spend their money in their local neighborhoods enriching the hometowns. HQ is in Central Detroit. Now many of the workers, most of them probably, work in the suburbs but it's still not the same.

By the way, let's keep in mind that a lot of parts are made on US soil. Many of these suppliers are in close proximity to the plants thereby further enriching the local economies.

Here are the 6 US plants.
  • Chicago, IL: Ford Explorer, Ford Taurus, Lincoln MKS
  • Flat Rock, MI: Ford Fusion, Ford Mustang
  • Kansas City, MO: Ford F-150, Ford Transit
  • Louisville, KY: Ford Escape, Lincoln MKC
  • Wayne, MI: Ford Focus, Ford C-Max
  • Avon Lake, OH: Ford E-Series
I agree with what you are saying. Yes there is a lot involved in assembling automobiles. Even just shipping them around is a lot. I mentioned salaries because you mentioned the economy. The dollars that people make are exactly what supports the local economies. People that assemble things purchase things just like the owner and members of the board of directors purchase things. Assemblers probably spend a lot less money, but they do spend for sure. And if there are a lot of assemblers for every employee that is much more highly paid, then the assemblers impact the economy more.

I still think a local assembly plant is like a local McD's, though. Nice to have, but the profit center is something I would want more.
 

texaswrx

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Canada's been building vehicles hand in hand with America since vehicle production started in North America.

What's sad is you're so ignorant that you don't know that and you actually put crap like this on a form.

The transmission from China a 100% agree it's terrible much worse than Mexico for the rest of your statement regarding Canada you're ignorant.
For us old folks, I still remember an old Jag that my dad had, with a 351 Windsor stuffed in it.
 

 
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