2021 Mach 1 CONFIRMED in Leaked Ford Document!!!

[samd1351]

I read an article the other day discussing the price point for the Mach 1 (lost the link, sorry). The author thought that with the GT350 and Buillitt gone from the lineup, and the GT500 being priced fairly high, the price point would be between a Bullitt and a GT350. Seems kind of high to me. Especially if there isn't a significant performance bump. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

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[IronG]

I read an article the other day discussing the price point for the Mach 1 (lost the link, sorry). The author thought that with the GT350 and Buillitt gone from the lineup, and the GT500 being priced fairly high, the price point would be between a Bullitt and a GT350. Seems kind of high to me. Especially if there isn't a significant performance bump. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

If you take the Bullitt as your starting point, add in PP2 stuff and an option for A10, you are in-between a Bullitt and a GT350. I hope they add more performance stuff than that. For me the A10 would not be needed, but I know that some folks like their auto's so it would make sense to include it as an option. Maybe add some additional cooling bits like the GT350 has, that would be a welcome option.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

The simplest way I can explain it is Torque gets you moving. HP keeps it going faster and faster once moving,

I had an FD 2750 lb LS V8 Road Race car with only 419RWHP. Road racing against 600RWHP similar cars they didn’t see which way I went on shorter tracks especially out of corners. On long tracks they could only pass me on very long straights. Once the HP took off.

Ha, sorry, but your "simple explanation" is completely inaccurate. HP has nothing to do with "keeping it going faster and faster once moving". Torque is the only thing that moves a car, period. Cars utilize gearing to use engine torque to accelerate. The torque at the rear wheels, to be exact. High hp simply means a lot of work can be done in a shorter amount of time. With proper gearing, that translates to quick acceleration via torque at the rear wheels. HP is the rate of work that can be done, which is why high hp cars can accelerate quickly, because that means a lot of work can be done in a short amount of time. But, the HP is not moving the car, it's a theoretical value based on torque output and corresponding engine speed. Torque multiplied by the gearing (torque at the rear wheels) is what is accelerating the car.

In general: High torque + low rpms = tall gearing = small torque multiplication = moderate acceleration. Moderate torque at high rpms = short gearing = high multiplication = strong acceleration.

Moderate torque at high rpms plus short gearing (short gearing = high multiplication) to utilize the moderate torque at high rpms is why the Porsche 911 GT3 RS is capable of trapping 129 mph in the 1/4 mile with only 346 ft-lbs of peak engine torque. High gear multiplication = very high torque at the rear wheels, even if engine torque is not that high = very quick acceleration.

 

[Hack]

But, the HP is not moving the car, it's a theoretical value based on torque output and corresponding engine speed.

I agree with almost everything you said, so I had to quote the one thing I could pick a nit with. HP isn't any more theoretical than torque. HP is a real thing that corresponds to the rate at which an engine can do work (such as accelerating a vehicle). Yes torque is simpler and easier to visualize than HP, but that doesn't mean that HP isn't real or that it isn't a single value that is indicative of how fast the car will accelerate.

I wouldn't contradict the word you used "move" because movement can happen independent of any power being applied (for instance if the vehicle is coasting).

And I'm excited for the Mach 1. I really hope Ford puts some GT350 parts into it such as more cooling. It would be great to see the power upped significantly, but I would be surprised if that happened. I don't think Ford currently has an easy path to do that.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

I agree with almost everything you said, so I had to quote the one thing I could pick a nit with. HP isn't any more theoretical than torque. HP is a real thing that corresponds to the rate at which an engine can do work (such as accelerating a vehicle). Yes torque is simpler and easier to visualize than HP, but that doesn't mean that HP isn't real or that it isn't a single value that is indicative of how fast the car will accelerate.

I wouldn't contradict the word you used "move" because movement can happen independent of any power being applied (for instance if the vehicle is coasting).

And I'm excited for the Mach 1. I really hope Ford puts some GT350 parts into it such as more cooling. It would be great to see the power upped significantly, but I would be surprised if that happened. I don't think Ford currently has an easy path to do that.

You're right - I should have said (and was thinking) it's a "calculated value" in lieu of theoretical.

 

[w3rkn]

In order to determine rate of acceleration from torque, you need to know what all the gear ratios are and what the diameter of the rear tires are.

I have a theoretical car. It weighs 3,000 lbs. It develops 300 ft-lbs of torque. Please tell me how fast it will accelerate (you can't).

A different car, 3,000 lbs, 300 hp. NOW with that info you can tell me how quickly the car will accelerate.

I understand but you aren't reading and thinking about what I'm telling you. If you do the exercises above and open your mind you might understand.

Exactly true. HP is a number that tells you how much torque is available at the rear wheels through gearing.

Engine torque is the real force being applied at the engine (I agree with you). And once again this is meaningless. You need to know how much torque is applied at the rear wheels in order to figure out how quickly a vehicle will accelerate.


There are no properties of torque and HP that are different at different speeds. See my replies above for more info.



That is very true. You can push with the same force (applying the same torque) and if you are in a really high gear the bike doesn't want to move, but if you are in a low gear the bike will take off and you are immediately unable to pedal fast enough to keep up. This is a great analogy that helps people to understand why engine torque doesn't tell you how quickly a car will accelerate.

Most of us have tried to start out in too high of a gear in our bike and realized that it's too hard to accelerate. We are applying the same torque to the bike, but the bike just takes forever to get going.

If you go back to an engine - that's why HP is useful. It incorporates RPM. High torque at low RPM is still low HP and it corresponds to a lower amount of acceleration. If an engine has high torque at high RPM it makes a lot of HP and it is capable of very rapid acceleration.

You still don't understand torque.

I don't need to exercise my mind. It is you that doesn't understand what torque is... and you keep trying to represent it in many different ways... when all you keep doing it repeating what horsepower is. To answer your first inane question to determine the rate of acceleration by torque, is to plot it....

dERP!


Horsepower is a calculated term. It tells you one thing, it's max potential...

There really is not such thing as horsepower... you don't feel it, you don't use it, etc.. it is a human derived term, of potential of something. When you drive a car, you are not using the full potential of the engine. It's horsepower has nothing to do with acceleration, because again, that is MAX potential, thus it means you have to go through an engines entire powerband, to reach HP figure.

And engine doesn't have instant hp. <--- That requires time & revolutions. The more torque you have, the less time and revolutions it takes to get to max hp.


Subsequently, the way you try to describe torque and "how fast" something is, means you do not understand torque. You don't needs tires, or gearing, or a car to explain torque... it's plot explains itself.

Exactly true. HP is a number that tells you how much torque is available at the rear wheels through gearing.

Engine torque is the real force being applied at the engine (I agree with you). And once again this is meaningless. You need to know how much torque is applied at the rear wheels in order to figure out how quickly a vehicle will accelerate.

Engine torque is connected/displaced/transmitted to the road through gearing and tires. Those are simple machines that multiply torque, they do not create torque. So it doesn't matter if a car has gearing or not. How much torque is applied to the back wheels is based on how much torque is coming out of the engine... at that particular time (rpm). That is why you do a dyno run in a SINGLE GEAR.... to see the cars/engines powerband. Not acceleration.

That is where I think you get lost. You keep misrepresenting what was said, or don't understand the different between acceleration and the rate of acceleration. And what role torque plays in mechanical acceleration.

The rate in which you go faster, is more... with more torque.

 

[w3rkn]

HP isn't any more theoretical than torque. HP is a real thing that corresponds to the rate at which an engine can do work (such as accelerating a vehicle). Yes torque is simpler and easier to visualize than HP, but that doesn't mean that HP isn't real or that it isn't a single value that is indicative of how fast the car will accelerate.

Everything quoted here is wrong^

And horsepower has nothing to do with rate... it is the potential. Torque is the only thing you can feel and actually visualize, as the horsepower plot is a calculus from the torque, not an actual applied force. A car doesn't grunt with horsepower... it is calculated by a mathmatical means, from the real force applied, torque.

And (again), the rate of acceleration of a car (in any gear) is the same as it's torque plot.

 

[Mazman]

My Mazda MX-5 ND2 has a massive 151 lb/ft, does it go backwards in comparison that is the main question in the HP/Torque discussion

 

[w3rkn]

It is not an argument of one or the other (hp/tq)... but in understanding the relationship to each other...

 

[Hack]

The rate in which you go faster, is more... with more torque.

I'm almost done, but I will try one more time to help you. Since you are the expert and torque is very meaningful... answer this question.

I have two cars that each weigh the same 3,000 lbs. They both have the same transmission and same rear gear. One has an engine that makes 100 ft/lbs of torque. The other has an engine that makes 1,000 ft/lbs of torque.

Which car will be faster through the quarter mile?

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Which car will be faster through the quarter mile?

The red one?

 

[GreenS550]

HP is a measure of work. Torque is a measure of force. Torque is the only measurement that translates into moving an object. HP is just measuring how quickly (per unit time) you're generating said torque.

Not trying to be difficult. F=MA from high school physics. Torque is completely different. It takes in to account the lever arm, force and angle:
https://www.google.com/search?q=for...me&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_JTu9XpfPMsWltQaq26vAAQ98

 

[13GetThere]

So will the A10 be available in the Mach 1, or will it only have the M6?

 

[Hack]

Not trying to be difficult. F=MA from high school physics. Torque is completely different. It takes in to account the lever arm, force and angle:
https://www.google.com/search?q=for...me&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_JTu9XpfPMsWltQaq26vAAQ98

I agree with @shogun32 on this one. Yes technically torque and force are different, but they are really treated the same/similarly. Torque is just force applied at a distance.

But shogun was wrong when he implied that HP doesn't translate into moving/accelerating an object.

The red one?

That is definitely an incorrect answer.

 

[Twin Turbo]

So will the A10 be available in the Mach 1, or will it only have the M6?

What's that got to do with torque?

To answer your question though.........no one will know until Ford releases the specs, but I really hope the 10-speed is at least an option (all previous Mach 1 have been available with a choice of transmissions)

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