True. However I'm interested in seeing what GM attempts with the refresh for 2019. Then we can really start having useless arguments again on here. My favorite.
I know this was posted a while back, but from what I have seen (been following the PP2 fairly closely, as I was strongly considering spending the coin to get one):
How about the Ford GT...700 HP. AWD. 3250lbs...10.6 1/4 mile stock (but it's not a drag car, it's a track car through and through). Technically it's a hyper car, not a super car but it will spank the higher end Corvett on the track any day. It's a true street legal race car.
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502034&highlight=ford
We've been through this one before...the Ford GT driver wasn't driving it hard as he just purchased it. This was his first outing with the vehicle and he was just getting familiar with it. Even so....it's blatantly obvious in that vid how much quicker the Ford GT is.
WHOOPED!? The max-effort 1LE was barely keeping up, and the GT was just going for a sunday cruise! :doh::lol:
I know it is funny as heck though.
My responses...How about the Ford GT...700 HP. AWD. 3250lbs...10.6 1/4 mile stock (but it's not a drag car, it's a track car through and through). Technically it's a hyper car, not a super car but it will spank the higher end Corvette on the track any day. It's a true street legal race car. (Don't disagree. However I'm interested in how the ZR1 will hold up against it.)
GM doesn't have anything to compete. Could they? Sure, if it made business sense and they could profit...but with their portfolio and customer base they obviously don't see value in it. But Ford did, so they made one, a darn good one.
In fact, the only reason for the vett to exist any more, given the Camaro now uses the vett engine (Using the vette engine isn't new. At all.), is it's chassis is lighter an more nimble than the 4 seater camaro. It's real advantage is in it's weight and handling and better tranny. (One extra gear for manual. Slight improvement. Same 8 speed as SS is you're into autos. ZL1 10 speed auto is definitely superior.)
Ford obviously can build a very fast car. The GT out did two Euro super cars (McLauren and I think Ferrari) that cost 3x as much.
The Pony car wars is business as usual, they trade blows. Ford or GM will up their game, then their competitor will follow suite. (One of the best things about competition.)
2011-2014 S197's were better drag cars than the Gen 5 Camaro's (2010-2015) in stock form and much lighter weight with similar power. (Definitely. I couldn't touch a 5th gen GT in my Camaro when it was stock for stock. Well... Unless the other driver sucked worse than I did. :lol: But I loved the 5th gen Mustang. Especially after the '14 refresh. That rear end was :love
Then comes along the S550 which was just a hair slower than the S197 on the drag strip but showed substantial improvement on the track, especially with bumps and uneven surfaces. (Can still beat the Camaro. It's a drivers race for sure. If the Camaro hesitates at all, the Mustang isn't being caught.)
The fast list for the 2015-2017 S550's has a 12.5 for the 6MT as a best and 12.3 for the 6A as the best, bone stock on stock tires. The Gen 5 Camaro, that was it's competitor at the time, was nearly identical on the drag strip according to the gen 5 Camaro fast list.
Then GM comes out with a new chassis which they took from the higher end Caddillac and paired it with the 6.2 in the vett. They upped their game and out did Ford. Now Ford is taking back the lead by using a 10A, better chassis tuning and a new FI/DI version of the coyote. (Yep. But, as you said. It's a back and forth fight. Will GM drop the 10 speed in the Camaro for the '19 refresh? I'm guessing so? But who knows...)
Gen 6 Camaro fast list has 12.1's as the best for 6MT's. 11.9 for the 8A's. It's also quite a bit more expensive....take the cost difference and you can go FI or a stage 3 power pack or tons of aftermarket NA mods + suspension mods and it will blow away a stock Gen 6. (Refresh on the Mustang puts them pretty equal on price once optioned out. Lower starting price still however. I'm guessing the route GM claims to be going, they'll be either right on or slightly lower with their starting price with the refresh.)
The base weight of a 2015-2017 GT 6MT is 3705. The base weight of the 2016-2017 1SS 6MT is 3685. That's only 20lbs difference...the S550 isn't a heavy pig, it's actually quite lightweight and the only reason the Gen 6 Camaro got so much lighter than the Gen 5 was because of a higher tier performance division's work in the GM family tree that Chevy was able to tap into. (Also, Ford changed to independent rear end. That was an adder for sure.)
Ford doesn't have a direct counterpart to Cadillac's offerings. Lincoln is more about luxury, not so much luxury performance. Cadillac is more like America's BMW as I see it.
I do know just the PP adds the following weight over the base GT: Strut tower and K-brace weigh about 17lbs total, PP wheels add 38lbs total. As far as I know, everything else is nearly identical weight.
Some of the GT PP's tested were Premiums optioned with the PP, not base GT's with just a PP, so they are heavier by a good 50~75lbs. I found that out for both C&D and Motortrend...the premiums come with 12 speaker 550 watt audio systems...some of those subs weight 40~50lbs just for the sub!
GM has better weight management when optioning, but a fully optioned SS is not nearly as nice to drive daily as a fully optioned GT. Just two different goals between the companies.
Plus with the Ford you get factory warrantied power packs through Ford Performance. The most GM offers is some exhaust and intake packages and some suspension upgrades. A stage 3 Power Pack for the 2015-2017 GT gives you 430+ wheel HP, 7500 red line....there's a huge amount of power in that top end as it holds torque much better due to the much better flowing intake manifold from the voodoo development...for $1900. It's also street legal in all 50 states, including cali as it meets CARB....that will provide enough advantage to make the first gen S550's on par with the current gen Camaro's at the strip, if not a bit more. Staying longer in each gear, even with no power increase is a substantial advantage by itself...
Let's not talk about overall quality...I think we know Ford wins on that front too. The 6.2L Camaro isn't very fast if it's sitting in the mechanics shop...get your mustang of flavor and enjoy it. (Mustang has had issues just like the Camaro. I think people like to put on their biased goggles with their favorite brand on these types of issues. Although most of that stuff is ironed out over the first two year models.)
You'll beat some Camaro's and some Camaro's will beat you. Even auto cross, there was a new 2017 SS in first place, by a faction of a second...there was also a 2016 SS in LAST place despite it's slight advantages from the factory.
I think some of these magazine are not just biased overall, but they also have poor testing methodology...test a base SS1 against a base GT. Test a PP only GT against an equivalently optioned SS. Test a premium GT against a premium SS...on the same day, multiple drivers.
Also one person might drive on car faster than the other depending on their style and comfort with each car. Switch drivers and it may change.
While I am not a PP2 owner... I do have PP1... My car is lowered and I have the same PP2 tires.. I also have a lip that is lower than the standard lips on both 17-18GTPP. I don't really get it. Yeah she might scrape a few times here and there, BUT she's still a blast to drive. Also, have you even owned a PP1 car with PZero tires? Those tires are garbage in bad weather, but boy were they fun.
Hell, I wouldn't crash it unless I was for sure able to get another one. The hell people go through just to get one seems a little too unreal right now.
Yea it is pretty awesome.