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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

Baron95

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I’m not sure why people on here would commit suicide over this? Maybe baron knows?
Where did that come from? I think the discussion here has turned mostly constructive. Why try to derail it.

The Ford GT is more special than the ZR1. The GT350 is more special than ZL1. Period.

Track performance is just one of many parameters for the desirability or success of a car. One that is important for very few people (like me).

The only people that are at risk of committing virtual/on-line suicide are those who refused to look at the data, and think that because a car is special (e.g. Ford GT, GT350, PP2) it has to perform better than the vanilla, non-special competition (e.g. ZR1, SS-1LE).

I think a true Ford fan, like I am, should insist that Ford treats their sports car with the same zeal as GM. Ford should continuously produce and develop multiple performance/enthusiast cars with the same zeal they pursue their F-series trucks. Like GM. 4-door small (ATS-V), 4-door mid-size (CTS-V), 2-door Coupe (Camaro), 2-seat purpose sports car (Corvette).

Why aren't you expecting and encouraging Ford to have the same focus as GM and giving as many choices in performance? Why you try to defend Ford's lack of performance on track with silly things like "But the Camaro is Ugly" or "The Corvette is a dime a dozen" or "Cadillac is for old people" like we constant read here.

If you are a performance car fan you celebrate great performance at an affordable price above all else.

If you can't do that, then virtual/on-line suicide is a risk. Thus the suicide watch.





There - I gave it a shot at answering :p
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jake_zx2

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I feel like Ford could beat it if they went back with the competition model and actually tried to set a lap time rather than just doing problem diagnosis. But unfortunately, I doubt Ford will even bother. Like I've said before, they're not really into that sort of pissing contest

Baron, in regards to your comment about GM tuning Ford's shocks, the GT has the same kind of dampers as the ZL1 1LE and (I think) the ZR1, which are actually a third party shock tuned by that company (multimatic). GM tuning had nothing to do with it

But I'm with you in wishing that Ford would offer more (and better) performance variants. I think Ford builds better overall cars, but GM (typically) builds faster cars. The SHO is a joke, the fusion sport isn't anything special, the focuses/fiestas are kinda neat but nothing that I would consider a serious performance offering, and don't even get me started on the Edge ST :doh: The mustang is good, and it's competitive, but in regards of performance, it could be better. Same with the GT350. And they're so far behind the ball on the GT500 that no one is going to care by the time it finally comes out. GT is great, but performance per dollar just isn't what that car was made for (and it shows in the design, quality, and exclusivity). However, I can't agree with you that performance per dollar is the ONLY thing that matters. I'm all about performance driving, but personally, if I'm spending $40k+ on a car, I want it to not only drive good, but look good, sound good, and feel good. I can only say about 2 of those things about the Camaro, which is why I went with a mustang
 

Baron95

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I'm far from an expert in suspension tuning, but I have spoken to a Multimatic "sales engineer" (engineer trying to convince folks in a racing series I was on (NASA GTS) to use/buy their shocks).

My understanding is that GM and Multimatic developed under GM NDA multiple computer models, testing and tuning protocols that were used on Z28, ZR2, ZL1-1LE (maybe others, I'm not sure). In particularly the ZR2 was primarily done by GM.

So GM has about 4 years of experience across at least 3 vehicle programs designing, tuning, matching springs to Multimatic shocks.

Ford had no production car experience prior to the Ford GT, that I know of. Maybe they have had no experience with it at all.
GM was first with magnetic shocks and had almost a decade lead on Ford. And you read the comments from MotorTrend "there is 4,000 years of evolution separating [the tuning of] the two".

I believe, but have no real info, that the same is at play here. GM has more experience, better computer models, and a much closer working relationship with Multimatic than Ford.

As it should be. GM has bought and is buying many, many thousands of Multimatic shocks (ZR2, ZL1-1LE, Z28). Ford is buying what? 300 sets for the GT?

Who do you think will get the A-team, the attention from Multimatic? The company with multiple programs and buying thousands or sets or the company with one program for maybe 300 sets?
 

thehunterooo

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Where did that come from? I think the discussion here has turned mostly constructive. Why try to derail it.

The Ford GT is more special than the ZR1. The GT350 is more special than ZL1. Period.

Track performance is just one of many parameters for the desirability or success of a car. One that is important for very few people (like me).

The only people that are at risk of committing virtual/on-line suicide are those who refused to look at the data, and think that because a car is special (e.g. Ford GT, GT350, PP2) it has to perform better than the vanilla, non-special competition (e.g. ZR1, SS-1LE).

I think a true Ford fan, like I am, should insist that Ford treats their sports car with the same zeal as GM. Ford should continuously produce and develop multiple performance/enthusiast cars with the same zeal they pursue their F-series trucks. Like GM. 4-door small (ATS-V), 4-door mid-size (CTS-V), 2-door Coupe (Camaro), 2-seat purpose sports car (Corvette).

Why aren't you expecting and encouraging Ford to have the same focus as GM and giving as many choices in performance? Why you try to defend Ford's lack of performance on track with silly things like "But the Camaro is Ugly" or "The Corvette is a dime a dozen" or "Cadillac is for old people" like we constant read here.

If you are a performance car fan you celebrate great performance at an affordable price above all else.

If you can't do that, then virtual/on-line suicide is a risk. Thus the suicide watch.





There - I gave it a shot at answering :p
http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512876&page=100
 

Baron95

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if I'm spending $40k+ on a car, I want it to not only drive good, but look good, sound good, and feel good. I can only say about 2 of those things about the Camaro, which is why I went with a mustang
I'm with you there.

And as I said many times before. All these cars we are discussing are awesome.

The SS1LE is just an "out of the box, ready to run, bargain" with all the coolers, fixed calipers in all 4 corners. The only whine on my part is Ford not offering a similarly priced Mustang GT that didn't force me to unbolt calipers to change pads, or cause me to wonder if I'm overheating my diff, tranny or oil on track.

That is really my only whine with the Mustang GT. They came so, so, so, so close with the PP2. Would it kill Ford to put the issue to bet and add $400 worth of coolers and $50 worth of a rear Brembo caliper from the factory?

Really Ford?
 

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Baron95

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OK. I just today (actually yesterday since it is past midnight) created an ID on that site. I thought I had one, it said my email was never registered, so I created one. Don't think I posted anything there (can't remember), but have read it, since I have never owned a Camaro to learn.

Lots of childish posts there. Lots of defensive posts here. All par for the course on car forums.

Still good info to be had on both sites.

I have another 6 weeks before I have to buy a car. The PP2 is an intriguing concept. Dying to see how it does on track. Ultimately though with the discounts on the Grand Sport and 1LE it may be tough to choose the Ford on this cycle. But a good review and one sitting at a convenient dealer may win the day.

First world problems - I love those.
 

jake_zx2

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GM was first with magnetic shocks and had almost a decade lead on Ford. And you read the comments from MotorTrend "there is 4,000 years of evolution separating [the tuning of] the two". I've said this before, and I'll say it again; Magazine editors are FAR from automotive engineers. They contribute things like "Superior chassis tuning" and "suspension geometry" to results that are really just a matter of what tires are on the car. Editors very rarely have a mechanical understanding of what goes into designing a car. Truth is, there really isn't all that much difference between the 2 chassis... They have extremely close torsional rigidity (If I recall, only 500nm of torsional force between the 2), have very similar dimensions, and the only benefit the Chevy really has is a longer wheelbase and shorter overhangs and a little bit of weight. Other than that, I have yet to hear how exactly the chassis is better. Suspension tuning? Maybe, but I don't necessarily think it's because GM is better at suspension tuning, I think it's that the bean counters force Ford to have too much of a mind towards their primary customer base (Non-enthusiasts), whereas Chevy doesn't have to worry about that as much as they have a far spread for their product base.

As it should be. GM has bought and is buying many, many thousands of Multimatic shocks (ZR2, ZL1-1LE, Z28). Ford is buying what? 300 sets for the GT?Who do you think will get the A-team, the attention from Multimatic? The company with multiple programs and buying thousands or sets or the company with one program for maybe 300 sets?[/B]IIRC, the total predicted run for GTs is up to 1500... still insignificant if you consider just the struts, but you have to remember, Ford is tasking Multimatic with the whole assembly process of every single Ford GT and a very large hand in the racing program. I'm sure the relationship with Ford is just about as strong as that with GM
That is really my only whine with the Mustang GT. They came so, so, so, so close with the PP2. Would it kill Ford to put the issue to bet and add $400 worth of coolers and $50 worth of a rear Brembo caliper from the factory?

Really Ford?
Agree 100%, but personally, I don't see it as a deal breaker like a lot of people are. Regular fluid upkeep can work wonders to prevent drivetrain overheating, and for when that's not enough, there's always coolers in the aftermarket. That, however, doesn't make it any better or acceptable that Ford neglected this. I also wish they would have put rear 4 pot brembos on it, but it would cost them a lot more than that... they would have to develop a new caliper for it, or use the GT350 ones (Which would lead to a massive increase in price, as they would have to use the GT350 hubs, rotors, calipers, and rear LCAs).
Red. It also seems we're having much more civil conversation than previously, so I just wanted to thank you for that. I like mature conversations that can actually gain perspective on both sides :cheers:
 

TheLion

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But that's the thing... the SS and the PP1 are on VERY similar tires, have similar designs (So similar drag coefficients can be assumed), yet still yield the same results as the PP1 vs 1LE, with the camaro being about equal, if not having a small advantage in 1/4 mile time, but the GT having more speed through the quarter mile and passing the camaro shortly thereafter. If there is no difference in that aspect between the SS and SS 1LE, then aero can't be the sole reason. It does, however, correspond with the idea of the mustang having more horsepower and a more usable power band while the camaro has more torque and make more power down low and the idea of the mustang having better suited gearing
You do realize the older gen 2 coyote (2015-2017) actually makes the same total power from 2500 rpm to red line as the 6.2l ls? The gen 3 makes around 15% more. How do I know? Integrate the power band from similar dyno graphs of stock cars, saw corrected values on dyno jet dunks rated for 1% variance gives us a pretty reliable number. That 500 extra rpm of the gen 2 coyote makes up for the 20-40 HP average difference from 2500 to about 6k. Theres a reason formula cars and exotic cars rev to the moon and back. A pp3 5.0 makes about 15% more total power than a stock 6.2 ls as well due to not only a higher peak and hold but another 450 rpm all thanks to the use of boss 302 valves, valve springs, rods and new Pistons (compared to first gen 5.0).

But the SS gearing is better able to utilize its power to get off the line fast. Taller gearing means you can apply more power. Its all about putting down as much power as you can get to the wheels over the rev range. That's what the new 10 a gets do.
 

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SlaughterOfTheSoul

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You do realize the older gen 2 coyote (2015-2017) actually makes the same total power from 2500 rpm to red line as the 6.2l ls? The gen 3 makes around 15% more. How do I know? Integrate the power band from similar dyno graphs of stock cars, saw corrected values on dyno jet dunks rated for 1% variance gives us a pretty reliable number. That 500 extra rpm of the gen 2 coyote makes up for the 20-40 HP average difference from 2500 to about 6k. Theres a reason formula cars and exotic cars rev to the moon and back. A pp3 5.0 makes about 15% more total power than a stock 6.2 ls as well due to not only a higher peak and hold but another 450 rpm all thanks to the use of boss 302 valves, valve springs, rods and new Pistons (compared to first gen 5.0).

But the SS gearing is better able to utilize its power to get off the line fast. Taller gearing means you can apply more power. Its all about putting down as much power as you can get to the wheels over the rev range. That's what the new 10 a gets do.
Power of an integral is divided by the duration typically. The extra 500rpm would make the interval integration longer and bring it back down. If we look at hayabusas and just bound the power by RPM instead of normalizing it or averaging it by duration, then they clearly make "more" power in this scenario than most vehicles on the road. Correct me if that's not what you're getting at or if you did account for this...

Were you doing this on some software like matlab?
 
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Ebm

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My question is will the horsepower and torque bumps eventually level out or will there always be progress in that department? The current horsepower rating is 460. Will it eventually reach 1,000 in a regular GT?
 

bluebeastsrt

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Lets hope so.
 

4V Mayhem

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My question is will the horsepower and torque bumps eventually level out or will there always be progress in that department? The current horsepower rating is 460. Will it eventually reach 1,000 in a regular GT?
Yea and the price will match that HP too. But more than likely they'll taper off once we get to the limits of NA engines. They still have to meet regulations on noise control, emissions, MPGs, driveability, longevity, oil consumption, etc. And a car with an engine like that would meet none of those regulations at least not for mass production. And then there are environmental concerns like safety. So while I do think a lot of the specialty and more expensive cars will start to get closer to 900 (Demon is already there) and eventually 1,000, I don't think the entry level V8 Mustangs and Camaros and Challengers will get there.
 

2018OFPP1?2

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My question is will the horsepower and torque bumps eventually level out or will there always be progress in that department? The current horsepower rating is 460. Will it eventually reach 1,000 in a regular GT?
Yes, but it'll be electric, or hybrid :doh:
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