2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

[Baron95]

That would only add fuel to the underrated idea.

That (underrated) is the least plausible explanation.

Why can't people accept that the Camaro 1LE, with its massive spoiler and tires that are over 1" wider on all 4 corners has a lot more drag than the Mustang. they don't fit skinny tires on drag racers for nothing.

As I posted very early on in this discussion, and got the usual defensiveness from the Ford excuse attorneys, the 1LE is set up for handling, high speed drag be dammed.

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[Baron95]

As to weight, it is not just the 117 lbs difference. It is also where it is. The Camaro is using lighter rotors (smaller in front and 2-piece aluminum-iron, vs larger single piece iron) - that is a good chunk of rotational mass advantage right there.

Overall the two cars are pretty much even in acceleration - not worth debating.

Handling, though, they are planets apart. Some of the quotes from the M/T head 2 head in blue:

When I asked our handling guru Kim Reynolds what he thought about the two cars after lapping them, he looked first to the Camaro then disparagingly glanced at the Mustang and said, “There’s about 4,000 years of evolution separating the two.”

To put it bluntly, the Camaro is in another league, with legitimate supercars. A 2015 GT-R NISMO held the Streets record—1:19.07—meaning the gulf between the quickest car ever lapped at the track and the Chevy (1.6 seconds) was less than half the gulf between our two competitors (3.3 seconds).

That is that Supercar comparison again, LOL.

"However (and here’s the part I hate writing), in the ways that actually matter to car guys, the 2018 Mustang got its butt handed to it. For less money, Chevy stone-cold out-engineered Ford."

 

[9secondko]

Wow. I didn't think the 1LE needed so much defending. For someone calling out "Ford excuse attorneys" it sure sounds like the excuses are firmly coming out of the camaro camp.

Going to be interesting to see the PP2 head to head.

The engine is there. If the Weight comes down and suspension firms up, watch out. There is a reason many who professionally test these vehicles for a living feel the new 5.0 is underrated. And with the ease of adding power to the Bullitt, it's likely to allow Ford some competitive maneuverability in quick succession to counter moves from the competition.

 

[Baron95]

Going to be interesting to see the PP2 head to head.

Yes. Specially if they run it for 1/2 hour and tell us if they encountered any overheating issues.

The PP2 305x19 square tire setup on PSC2 is a much better set up for cars with that much weight upfront. Not to mention a lot more choices at lower prices with 19" wheels.






P.S. As to the Ford excuse attorney's comment, not sure the 1LE requires any defending in the track capabilities department, and it is already thoroughly convicted in the space, visibility, looks department. It is what it is - that ugly girlfriend that delivers the best sex experience night after night after night.

 

[jake_zx2]

I think aero plays a role, but I really think it's more of a HP advantage and gearing conversation than drag, and I'm sure the PP2 will still have the top end advantage. It's not just about peak power, its about how the power is delivered. Ford has a wider power band because of more revs, whereas Chevy has a lower power advantage because of torque. That alone is evident by the videos, and evident by 1/4 mile times/speeds of SS vs GT (Typically run around the same time, but the mustang is typically 5 mph faster).

 

[Baron95]

That alone is evident by the videos, and evident by 1/4 mile times/speeds of SS vs GT (Typically run around the same time, but the mustang is typically 5 mph faster).

Isn't that exactly what you would expect for two cars of the same horsepower, with one having better grip (tires) and more drag (from tires and aero)?

In other words, if I got two Mustang GTs, put tires that are over an inch wider and a large spoiler on one, and kept the other as is, ran them down the 1/4 mile, wouldn't I see exactly that: The one with bigger tires and spoiler would win on time (marginally) the one with skinny tires and no spoiler will have a higher trap speed.

 

[jake_zx2]

But that's the thing... the SS and the PP1 are on VERY similar tires, have similar designs (So similar drag coefficients can be assumed), yet still yield the same results as the PP1 vs 1LE, with the camaro being about equal, if not having a small advantage in 1/4 mile time, but the GT having more speed through the quarter mile and passing the camaro shortly thereafter. If there is no difference in that aspect between the SS and SS 1LE, then aero can't be the sole reason. It does, however, correspond with the idea of the mustang having more horsepower and a more usable power band while the camaro has more torque and make more power down low and the idea of the mustang having better suited gearing

 

[Baron95]

But that's the thing... the SS and the PP1 are on VERY similar tires, have similar designs (So similar drag coefficients can be assumed), yet still yield the same results as the PP1 vs 1LE, with the camaro being about equal, if not having a small advantage in 1/4 mile time, but the GT having more speed through the quarter mile and passing the camaro shortly thereafter. If there is no difference in that aspect between the SS and SS 1LE, then aero can't be the sole reason. It does, however, correspond with the idea of the mustang having more horsepower and a more usable power band while the camaro has more torque and make more power down low and the idea of the mustang having better suited gearing

Interesting. I'm not a drag racer, so not too keyed in to the details. But it's plausible that the Mustang top end pull is coming into play.

The key think is how much both of these cars have pulled away from the pack.

I remember when I bought my last mustang GT I also considered the Nissan 370Z. The Motor Trend issue online has a review of the 370Z as well. That vehicle looks like a sad, jurassic joke next to the Mustang GT and Camaro SS.

 

[jake_zx2]

I just love all aspects of racing. I'm more of a road racing/autox guy, but I enjoy some drag racing if there's no other events going on at the time (I grew up around more of a drag racing crowd, but I was always more interested in road racing. Moving out to Germany helped me hone in on that aspect).

And yeah, it honestly kind of sucks because, while the Z is enjoyable to drive, it's been so stagnant that it's performance is severely sub-par when considering the price. You can get better performance out of an ecoboost mustang for $5k less

 

[4V Mayhem]

The ZR1 with 70% more downforce and +100HP will most likely be faster than the Ford GT my a comfortable margin. It is just how it is. Ford, even with a $453K/vehicle price point just can't keep up with GM's $120K price point.

Looks like you were right. I thought the Ford GT would have been either tied or ahead of the ZR1.

 

[Baron95]

Looks like you were right. I thought the Ford GT would have been either tied or ahead of the ZR1.

Yes, I was not going to post because it is somewhat off-topic and gloating is not nice.

However, there was never much doubt in my mind. The Z06 was already very close to the Ford GT (Z06 being even faster in tight spaces, like figure 8). The ZR1 added more power, more downforce and kept the weight the same.

You need to think about it this way....

GM has been at it year, after year, after year, with a number of RWD performance cars (Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V, ATS-V). Ford comes in, does a Ford GT, then drops out for 10 years, then does another one. There is just no way they can keep up. Even creating a no-expenses-spared $450K car, they can't keep up with steady, methodical improvements. It is the same exact phenomenon that you see with the Acura NSX - that car is absolutely horrible to drive on track. You can't just parachute in and do a performance car every 10 years.

In the end, the ZR1 (driven by a GM staff test engineer) smashed the all time VIR record by 1.37s (set by a full-on Ford GT LeMans pro race driver).

Now, I will say this. There HAS TO BE a lot of unrealized potential in the Ford GT. As a matter of fact, I think if Ford turns over the GT development to GM to tune those shocks and a few other items, the Ford GT can come back on top. Ford just doesn't have the talent and breath of experience to do it.

 

[cosmo]

I don't think Ford is necessarily bad at suspension tuning, as this car did have the record (for a few days lol). GM just has a better system in place apparently with it's testing and tuning.

Ford embarrassed Porsche by beating the 918 for half the price, then got embarrassed by GM by being beaten for roughly 1/4 - 1/3 of the price.

Plus, I like V8s and manuals, so I'd get the ZR1 over the GT anyways.

 

[Baron95]

Ford embarrassed Porsche by beating the 918 for half the price, then got embarrassed by GM by being beaten for roughly 1/4 - 1/3 of the price.

Cars like the Ford GT, 918, LaFerrari, etc are purpose-built, no-expense-spared vehicles. They are priced almost exclusively based on how many will be built - an arbitrary decision to create scarcity.

Those cars are un-obtanium for virtually all of us.

A Z06, which was only slightly more than 1 sec slower than the Ford GT at VIR, is within reach of many of us. The ZR1 is also within reach of several of us.

I think that is the breakthrough. That GM is putting out cars like the ZL1-1LE and Z06/ZR1, that are within reach of many people and also are regularly seen at HPDE track day events. They are bought by regular people, and used regularly on track days. That is the beauty of those cars.

The GT350-R could have been such a car. But Ford decided to limit supply to create scarcity and dealer mark ups, which turned regular people who wanted to actually drive it on track (like me) off.

 

[thehunterooo]

“I guess we'll have to put the Mustang fanboys and M6G on suicide watch again...“

I’m not sure why people on here would commit suicide over this? Maybe baron knows?

 

[4V Mayhem]

Yes, I was not going to post because it is somewhat off-topic and gloating is not nice.

However, there was never much doubt in my mind. The Z06 was already very close to the Ford GT (Z06 being even faster in tight spaces, like figure 8). The ZR1 added more power, more downforce and kept the weight the same.

You need to think about it this way....

GM has been at it year, after year, after year, with a number of RWD performance cars (Corvette, Camaro, CTS-V, ATS-V). Ford comes in, does a Ford GT, then drops out for 10 years, then does another one. There is just no way they can keep up. Even creating a no-expenses-spared $450K car, they can't keep up with steady, methodical improvements. It is the same exact phenomenon that you see with the Acura NSX - that car is absolutely horrible to drive on track. You can't just parachute in and do a performance car every 10 years.

In the end, the ZR1 (driven by a GM staff test engineer) smashed the all time VIR record by 1.37s (set by a full-on Ford GT LeMans pro race driver).

Now, I will say this. There HAS TO BE a lot of unrealized potential in the Ford GT. As a matter of fact, I think if Ford turns over the GT development to GM to tune those shocks and a few other items, the Ford GT can come back on top. Ford just doesn't have the talent and breath of experience to do it.

Well Ford had the Cobra R but again that was only very very scarcely available. They also had the BOSS and other specialty Mustangs. Although they are not on the level of the Z06/ZR1 etc nor were they produced as steadily and consistently. You're right. GM has developed the Vette over decades and each time it did better than the previous model by quite a bit. But I still would not have expected the Ford GT to lose to the ZR1 at all.

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