2018/19 Shelby GT500 Mustang Spotted! Twin Turbo V8 Powered? [UPDATED WITH VIDEO]

mbeale68

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In the next few years, new fuel economy requirements are being imposed on heavy duty pickup trucks. This means that Ford will need to boost the fuel economy of the F250 and up trucks. A 5.2 or smaller ecoboost V8 would be one way to do this. Ford already has experience with a hot V, V8 engine with the scorpion diesel V8, so a hot V version of the coyote would make sense for the heavy duty trucks. A high performance version of this engine for the GT500 also seems to make sense.





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DrumReaper

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They're not doing new front-end sheet metal and structure to package this kind of stuff...simply too expensive. Doing new fenders and hood for the GT350 is easy. Those have little impact on crash test results and are relatively cheap as far as tooling is concerned.
Hmmm... If there is a 18MY 350 sharing the same front end, why not?

I don't say what's not and is too expensive for Ford anymore... They shocked the crap outta everyone with the 350. You can best bet they got something up their sleeve that's gonna solve the HP problem we're all trying to figure out.

But, again... I hope and pray it's not a SC.
 

thePill

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A parallel turbo setup does not require two heat exchangers, you simply need two inlets and one outlet. The EB V6 engines are setup exactly like this.

Go try measuring the space between the header inlet flange and the closest hard points. You're not fitting a manifold, turbo and piping in there and still meeting minimum package requirements for engine roll (particularly for very hot components...their minimums are higher). It's not a fair comparison with Ford doing the voodoo, as that takes up the same package space as the coyote. The challenge of combating the significant shaking forces is a good one, but simply requires a lot of development time. They're not doing new front-end sheet metal and structure to package this kind of stuff...simply too expensive. Doing new fenders and hood for the GT350 is easy. Those have little impact on crash test results and are relatively cheap as far as tooling is concerned.
As soon as a Twin system begins to share components, such as intake and heat exchanger, it really begins to cease being a Twin system. Look at the current Ford GT's system... literally two of everything. Look at BMW's 4.4... two of everything.

Now, move down to the very ingenious "Twin" Cobra Jet. Due to packaging limitations (as mentioned), the Cobra Jet turbos SHARE an intake, Throttle Body AND heat exchanger. That is where the Twin in Twin Turbo ends. It is merely a Parallel BiTurbo system. The CJ was the only possible way to get a sustem like that to fit in a Mustang. But you see what had to go right??? Everything...


It simply IS NOT a Parallel BiTurbo or Parralle Twin... it is a Sequential, BiTurbo in a Sequential system.

The MAIN idea here is EACH turbo feeds a cylinder bank (V or Box) in order to be a Twin. After that, everything is a BiTurbo.

At this rate, everything will be Ecoboost because nobody understands the differences. Because marketing...

Supercharger? Pro charger or Roots? Same thing?
 

BmacIL

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Hmmm... If there is a 18MY 350 sharing the same front end, why not?

I don't say what's not and is too expensive for Ford anymore... They shocked the crap outta everyone with the 350. You can best bet they got something up their sleeve that's gonna solve the HP problem we're all trying to figure out.

But, again... I hope and pray it's not a SC.
Just remember who the market is for the GT500 and that the two will exist alongside each other...
 

thePill

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A parallel turbo setup does not require two heat exchangers, you simply need two inlets and one outlet. The EB V6 engines are setup exactly like this.

Go try measuring the space between the header inlet flange and the closest hard points. You're not fitting a manifold, turbo and piping in there and still meeting minimum package requirements for engine roll (particularly for very hot components...their minimums are higher). It's not a fair comparison with Ford doing the voodoo, as that takes up the same package space as the coyote. The challenge of combating the significant shaking forces is a good one, but simply requires a lot of development time. They're not doing new front-end sheet metal and structure to package this kind of stuff...simply too expensive. Doing new fenders and hood for the GT350 is easy. Those have little impact on crash test results and are relatively cheap as far as tooling is concerned.
Which is why the Turbos will remain in the valley in a sequence.

You are absolutely correct, no room for a parallel turbo system of any kind. Even the ingenuity the Cobra Jet Twin had, it shared an Intake, Exchanger and TB...

That is why thePill has been screaming about a sequential, or as some have been calling it, a Compound Turbo.

That doesn't count out the possibility of Ford using a REAL Twin Turbo like the BMW 4.4. Both of those turbos rest in the valley, typically taking no more room than a Supercharger.

Google: Ford Scorpion Engine/Turbo and check out the set up. It is NOT a Twin Turbo or Parallel system. That has been thePills message since... forever...


Sequential or "Compound" turbo, In the Valley. It will likely feed all 8 cylinders, only require one exchanger.

There only needs to be room for an additional heat exchanger and Ford left plenty of overhang for that. Besides, you can't make 800hp with a single turbo or TVS supercharger. You guys should know that by now...
 

thePill

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A parallel turbo setup does not require two heat exchangers, you simply need two inlets and one outlet. The EB V6 engines are setup exactly like this.

Go try measuring the space between the header inlet flange and the closest hard points. You're not fitting a manifold, turbo and piping in there and still meeting minimum package requirements for engine roll (particularly for very hot components...their minimums are higher). It's not a fair comparison with Ford doing the voodoo, as that takes up the same package space as the coyote. The challenge of combating the significant shaking forces is a good one, but simply requires a lot of development time. They're not doing new front-end sheet metal and structure to package this kind of stuff...simply too expensive. Doing new fenders and hood for the GT350 is easy. Those have little impact on crash test results and are relatively cheap as far as tooling is concerned.
By the way, the moment a twin turbo system quits driving each cylinder bank independently, it ceases to be a Twin... you understand that right?

While it is a fancy trick, simply applying two turbos, charging a single intake (Cobra Jet) and cooling both turbos through the same exchanger (also Cobra Jet), well... the system begins to evolve away from the Twin. Sure, it is still a parallel BiTurbo system meaning, it in fact has two turbos. However, a Twin Turbo, like the exact one found in the Ford GT, requires separate exchangers, has two intakes, one for each side and each turbo breathes independently.

Because an actual Twin system cannot even fit into an S197, there is very little hope for a true, honest Twin system like the FGT. Nor will it use a parallel system like the Cobra Jet. Because, quite frankly, there is no room.

Now, look at BMW's 4.4... An honest Twin? Looks like it... Both turbos sit in the valley and leech exhaust gas from the rear of the engine. Is BMW's Twin the same as Ford's Scorpion Turbos?

Hell no... They both sit in the valley sure...


How about we just call everything that has a Turbo an Ecoboost from now on. Let's dumb it down...

It's either Supercharged (because there's only one kind of SC right) and Ecoboost, regardless if its a Single Twin Scroll, Twin Parallel, BiT Parallel or BiTurbo Sequential. There is also a big difference in HOW they collect exhaust gases. Over the back like the BMW and Powerstoke or from the manifolds like the ATS-V, FGT, Cobra Jet.

Packaging you say? What option above can reach 800hp and be packaged in an S550?

A Sequential BiTurbo that rest In The Valley... which is what thePill has been selling for some time. In fact, I am growing tired of agreeing with people then having them disagree...

You are correct, no room for the Twin Turbo system you are suggesting... If a TVS can fit up there, so can the Scorpion...
 

thePill

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Here is a great explanation of the turbo they will likely use.

-- A single, sequential turbocharger with twin impellers delivers performance at low and high engine speeds, reducing turbo lag. The turbocharger, made by Honeywell, is mounted in the "V" between the cylinder heads.

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-new...es-new-67-liter-power-stroke-v8#ixzz4Idh6aciV
Technically, they call it a Single Turbo BUT, you can see that it does indeed have a low and high pressure Turbo.

The exhaust actually wraps up behind the engine and into the V.
 

thePill

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http://m.wardsauto.com/news-analysis/turbo-placement-bmw-v-8-may-be-new-design-trend

FYI, if Ford wanted to do a parallel twin turbo, why can't it fit?

BMW designed a Twin in the V and Ford has a Compound Turbo in the V as well. BOTH leech exhaust from the back.

It's either the Scorpion or similar to a BMW twin... both systems share an exchanger and it can be done. Of course, BMW or AMG has a Tri-Turbo which is a parallel sequential... A Compound Turbo driving a Twin turbo system...


This is the design they will use. Completely untraditional...
 

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I agree... I have said all along that I think that the two couldn't coexist, but supposedly it was leaked that the demand for the 350 is still high so it may be offered In 18MY, and as shown earlier, there is already a GT350 rolling around with a masked front end.
 

DrumReaper

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[MENTION=6383]thePill[/MENTION], what's the chances packaging could be easier with a SC/TC setup (two charging), such as in the Volvo T6 package?... Or would that be less feasible in a larger cubic-inch engine?
 

thePill

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Hmmm... If there is a 18MY 350 sharing the same front end, why not?

I don't say what's not and is too expensive for Ford anymore... They shocked the crap outta everyone with the 350. You can best bet they got something up their sleeve that's gonna solve the HP problem we're all trying to figure out.

But, again... I hope and pray it's not a SC.
It's a "Hot V" designed turbo. Will it be an actual Twin Turbo like BMW's or will it be a Low/High Pressure Twin Fin and like the Powerstoke? Will it collect gas like a Twin Scroll?

Someone once chuckled at GM... this was a design of theirs that they abandoned. Unfortunately, it was picked up by BMW, Mercedes, Audi and, you guess it... FoMoCo ;)

I want a Twin but not if it needs to share cooling and use a single intake. Issues with heat, issues with packaging. You almost need a V6 for one... even though there are 8's.

Either way, 800 has always been the goal... only a few options on the table now.
 

thePill

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[MENTION=6383]thePill[/MENTION], what's the chances packaging could be easier with a SC/TC setup (two charging), such as in the Volvo T6 package?... Or would that be less feasible in a larger cubic-inch engine?
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/what-is-a-hot-v-turbo-engine-layout-and-what-benefits-does-it-have/

Here is the ONLY shot at an honest Twin Turbo. One advantage being, it's an easy set up to share from car to truck to SUV. No weird TT extremities...

Simply placing a Supercharger anywhere on a Mustang now eliminates it from the Ecoboost family. Which Ford desperately wants ALL turbo vehicles encompassed.

I still have extreme doubts about an honest Hot V Twin system or even a "Siamese" system like the Cobra Jet that shared an intake and exchanger.

A "Hot V" leeches gas from the rear of the engine, and it could lead to a fully Indy Twin system like a FGT, a Siamese system like AMG or ATS-V that shared vital components OR, a Sequential Turbo (Compound) that is kinda both.. a single housing with a smaller low pressure turbo and a high pressure turbo.

I was scolded for saying "small>large" turbo. I guess that is not the case... Low pressure, high pressure... Size no matter... A Twin Scroll collects low and high pressure gases from the exhaust. A Compound Turbo kind does the same thing... instead of a low/high pressure port, there is a low/high pressure turbo.


Okay, I'm done for the day. See ya tomorrow.
 

thePill

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...big question here.

Will it say cool enough using a Hot V Twin Turbo but sharing it's heat exchanger like the Cobra Jet?

Remember, everything had to go on the CJ to package it and keep it cool. AC delete was pretty much required ya' know... The Mustang has one of the biggest mouths in the industry, it's the main reason thePill likes it... but is it enough to cool two independent turbos? I don't think so... In order to run cool enough, they would need their own exchangers... but packaging, weight...

I think the Scorpion system is similar to what we will see. A Turbo drive of sorts... a nice flat curve... using long runners to keep torque down while the trucks and SUV's use the opposite. More TQ than HP...
 

Darkane

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I agree... I have said all along that I think that the two couldn't coexist, but supposedly it was leaked that the demand for the 350 is still high so it may be offered In 18MY, and as shown earlier, there is already a GT350 rolling around with a masked front end.
Where did you see the leaked info for the '18 350 model? I don't remember seeing anything myself.
 

HCT

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Where did you see the leaked info for the '18 350 model? I don't remember seeing anything myself.
Pictures were leaked of a Roush test car that clearly had GT350 bodywork but the front end was disguised/masked. Speculation initially was that it was testing GT500 engine components; some people insist it was just hiding a redesigned GT350 nose for '18. Nobody can prove anything conclusively since Ford and Roush aren't talking.
 

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