2017 CHEVROLET CAMARO ZL1 VS. 2017 FORD MUSTANG SHELBY GT350R: THE FOREVER WAR

[mdmoore23]

So Chevy cracked the code on preventing Dealers from adding ADMs?

Or are you referring to the Z28 that sat around on lots with ADMs for so long that dealers have to have fire-sales?

Or is there just no demand for the ZL1 that dealers cant get ADMs?

Really doesn't matter to me. All I know is the ZL1 is the better performer and costs less. What that has to do with the Z/28, I don't know. We all know the Z/28 price was part of its sales problem. But, as far as the new ZL1 goes, there's really nothing that stacks up to its all around performance for the money. The Shelby's unique exhaust note can't be it's savior every time. This time it flat out got beat, and for some reason they chose to completely ignore that. Maybe Ford left a little envelope in the glove box. And if you don't mind paying adm, that's fine. I'm fine with buying a faster, better braking, better looking, higher build quality car for less money. I haven't seen any ZL1's with the wrong seats, wrong stripes, or crappy paint like the 350's come equipped with.

Sponsored

 

[mdmoore23]

I think we can all agree with this part of your quote, but still honestly prefer the characteristics of the GT350/GT350R over the ZL1. Judging the "best" car is still, almost entirely, subjective.

That also means that someone else could prefer the ZL1 and also be correct in their opinion.

-T

I can respect someone preferring the characteristics but to have a head to head comparison, lose in every category, be 2 seconds slower on track, and still win is bogus to me. The praises were for exhaust note, bad nvh, and crappy paint quality. And for the 2 second gap I'm referring to the lap Randy ran at the same track with the same car in the Ignition episode. I understand subjective wins, but normally the 2 cars have narrower margins.

 

[9secondko]

That was one of the most bogus comparisons I've ever watched. They clearly had picked the 350R before any testing was done. What they probably didn't realize was that the ZL1 would beat it in every performance metric. That same white ZL1 was 2 seconds faster than the 350R in the Ignition episode (faster than a Mclaren 570s). What exactly is the 350R better at on track? Yet it wins because of its "unrefinement" essentially. Get outta here! I know we all live for our home teams to win, but give credit where it's due. The ZL1 is simply the better car performance wise, and the 1LE package will only widen that gap. Oh, and it costs less and can actually be purchased without the mandatory pre lube.

What are you even talking about? It's Chevy Trend. They're notorious for their worship of the bow tie. They picked the supercharged zl1 to fight the 350 because they aren't direct competitors. They picked the next class up on the Chevy side to because the entire world knew it would be faster. What they probably didn't expect was how well the 350 would do against a car it shouldn't come close to on paper. And I bet they didn't expect that they'd respect it more than the zl1. The 350 is so good it's making converts.

Let's see what it looks like when the Cobra comes out and the zl1 has to fight someone it's own size. Heck, you could just slap an SC ON THE 350 to even things out and destroy the zl1. A purpose built Cobra with the 350 bones under it is even more sinister.

 

[Zeke.Malvo]

The butt-hurt is strong! LoL

 

[DrumReaper]

I can respect someone preferring the characteristics but to have a head to head comparison, lose in every category, be 2 seconds slower on track, and still win is bogus to me. The praises were for exhaust note, bad nvh, and crappy paint quality. And for the 2 second gap I'm referring to the lap Randy ran at the same track with the same car in the Ignition episode. I understand subjective wins, but normally the 2 cars have narrower margins.

What 2-sec gap? Even MT said that's an issue...

Again, it appears that you are stuck on numbers, of which don't always imply the better option. In this case, the R was the better compilation of its numbers as a whole, whereas the Z was only better in some performance areas.

Again, for a significantly underpowered car to stay within 0.39-sec of the Z, is a performance category in and of itself.

 

[Twin Turbo]

Before this gets too out of hand, please keep it civil and friendly, thank you

 

[Coyote Red]

Herein lies the quandary, money vs performance? I am a man of simple means and monies. So I am delighted the Ford has a "performance car" in my budget. It's a great time in automotive history, carry on chaps!

 

[mkonrad]

But why does Motortrend proclaim the Ford pre-winner? There's something not right, and money in the glovebox is too obvious. It's an industry rag that stakes their reputation on cheerleading the sports car industry, they have an interest in fluffing the Chevy, but they don't. And nobody likes to win by default.

My thought is they're trying to justify the results they had a few months earlier with the best Driver's Car, so they gave it to the Ford. That's fine, the best Driver's Car was always intended to be subjective. But Motortrend cant do the same review again without losing relevance. And to me, Motortrend loses some credibility when numbers favor the Chevy almost everywhere. The Chevy review, while not as good subjectively, was not exactly a damning review, and it clearly outperformed, so I question the conclusion.

This has nothing to do with how much someone loves their car, and on a Ford forum the Ford should win, but Motortrend needs to think again. They may be intentionally sowing confusion because nobody knows what to do with the GT500, ZL1 1LE, or Z28. They may have just thrown the review so it does not get cleared up when the new models arrive. I guess it is the eternal battle, and Motortrend is doing their best to keep it without rational answers.

 

[Twin Turbo]

I think the GT350 won because it was the car they enjoyed the most. It was the one that stirred their soul.

Sure, the ZL1 performed better in raw performance terms, as you'd expect, given it's FI, but sometimes "winning" isn't about numbers.....it's about how a car makes you feel.

And I applaud MT for that.

I just hope the next halo-Stang keeps that ethos. Sure, give it power and performance figures to beat the ZL1.......but make GT350 the benchmark for the driving enjoyment.

Just my 2p

 

[firestarter2]

But why does Motortrend proclaim the Ford pre-winner? There's something not right, and money in the glovebox is too obvious. It's an industry rag that stakes their reputation on cheerleading the sports car industry, they have an interest in fluffing the Chevy, but they don't. And nobody likes to win by default.

My thought is they're trying to justify the results they had a few months earlier with the best Driver's Car, so they gave it to the Ford. That's fine, the best Driver's Car was always intended to be subjective. But Motortrend cant do the same review again without losing relevance. And to me, Motortrend loses some credibility when numbers favor the Chevy almost everywhere. The Chevy review, while not as good subjectively, was not exactly a damning review, and it clearly outperformed, so I question the conclusion.

This has nothing to do with how much someone loves their car, and on a Ford forum the Ford should win, but Motortrend needs to think again. They may be intentionally sowing confusion because nobody knows what to do with the GT500, ZL1 1LE, or Z28. They may have just thrown the review so it does not get cleared up when the new models arrive. I guess it is the eternal battle, and Motortrend is doing their best to keep it without rational answers.

If it was just numbers Miatas would never win and comparisons would not be needed just a table with numbers

It's not that complex

 

[Zombo]

It seems to me that a lot of people just don't get it. Cars and driving is not all about the numbers, especially when we are comparing cars with such high capability. It's about the intangibles; how it feels, sounds, how it inspires confidence, how it makes you feel driving it. I would gladly give up a few tenths, or feet braking in favor of an increase in the intangibles.

If you would indulge me, I attached a C&D write-up of a 8 car sport coupe comparison from back in 1985. I was about the graduate from Engineering School and this test determined my first new car purchase. The winner had the least power, was one of the slowest and had strictly mid-pack performance stats. But it killed, because of the intangibles.

I'd pay a ridiculous price to add one to my collection...if you know of any?

 

[Zitrosounds]

The conspiracy theorist have arrived!!!! MT couldn't quite possibly choose a winner for which they felt was the best for them. Almost EVERY publication thus far that has reviewed the GT350 found it to be stellar. Is it so hard to believe that it was chosen the winner? LOL Here is a story for you. I was in a competition in the Army many years ago. I was the fastest participant and should have won the competition. But I did not win, WHY? Becuase I missed a step along the way and the runner up didn't. Needles to say who the obvious winner was. Same here with the ZL1, it's missing something. Maybe it's the "pixie dust"

 

[millhouse]

I can respect someone preferring the characteristics but to have a head to head comparison, lose in every category, be 2 seconds slower on track, and still win is bogus to me. The praises were for exhaust note, bad nvh, and crappy paint quality. And for the 2 second gap I'm referring to the lap Randy ran at the same track with the same car in the Ignition episode. I understand subjective wins, but normally the 2 cars have narrower margins.

I'm confused, wasn't the gap closer to 0.4 seconds, not 2?

Also, if you would have bothered to read the article instead of just watching the video, you can clearly see it's not just the exhaust note that won this for the GT350R.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...l1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

A few snipits from said article...

"Comparing forced induction to natural aspiration is always a sticky wicket. Not quite apples to oranges—more like apples to pears."

They agree that this NA vs FI isn't the ideal matchup, but it's all they have.

"The GT350R sports one of the best-feeling front ends I’ve had the privilege of experiencing. It’s simply excellent. This Shelby’s shifter shifts better, the engine feels better (who wouldn’t take an 8,250-rpm redline over a 6,500-rpm limit?), the brake pedal feels better, and the car is simply sportier in every way. "

"Even a cursory glance at the speed trace (above) should leave you wondering, “How the heck does the GT350R wind up only 70 feet behind the ZL1 at the checkered flag?” The Camaro is dramatically faster on the front straight, grips better around the long, lower-speed Turn 2 and slingshots around the very quick Turn 8 faster than the Shelby. But the Ford catches up in nips and bits—a little here, a little there.

The GT350R repeatedly brakes a little better, particularly approaching the Turn 3, ‘Omega’ corner; it momentarily notches a peak-speed win between Turns 6 and 7. Heroically, it claws back part of that gap through the terrifying Turn 9. True, we’ve lapped this very ZL1 here before when it posted an even quicker, 1:26.12 sec lap (largely owed to weather and track conditions, to hear it from Randy), but of course this Mustang was faced the same temperature, barometric pressure, and humidity. On this day, the ZL1 shined but only by a fraction."

 

[PP0001]

Really doesn't matter to me. All I know is the ZL1 is the better performer and costs less. What that has to do with the Z/28, I don't know. We all know the Z/28 price was part of its sales problem. But, as far as the new ZL1 goes, there's really nothing that stacks up to its all around performance for the money. The Shelby's unique exhaust note can't be it's savior every time. This time it flat out got beat, and for some reason they chose to completely ignore that. Maybe Ford left a little envelope in the glove box. And if you don't mind paying adm, that's fine. I'm fine with buying a faster, better braking, better looking, higher build quality car for less money. I haven't seen any ZL1's with the wrong seats, wrong stripes, or crappy paint like the 350's come equipped with.

If you think coming on a GT350/GT350R forum and boasting about the virtues of your new ZL1 and think that you are going to convert any us of you are obviously gravely mistaken.

For quite some time you have come on this forum bashing the GT350/GT350R on all pretty much all areas including the very well discussed ADM issue.

Was it not long ago that you were telling about the virtues of your new Hellcat (how did that all go?) and now how good the ZL1 is?

I do not have much respect for the Hellcat that you owned but do have great respect for the new ZL1 but when it comes to looks please don't tell us that your new Camaro is a better looking car than the GT350R as that is laughable to say the least.

For an intelligent individual I am somewhat surprised that you continue to show up on our forum complaining about many aspects of these outstanding Shelby's automobiles.

We all know how you feel about these GT350 cars and I wish you good luck with your new ride!

 

[Honus]

If bench racing always won, these rags would go under in six months from reader boredom.

Luckily, driving is subjective so they can really say whatever they want.

We are also dealing with the literal razors edge on car metrics, magnifying every spec until we lose the proportion of it. That's why there's a human butt in the seat.

Butt time in a GT350 is good time. So it tends to win. Also because controversy sells.

Sponsored