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19 GT Reliability with Procharger P1X HO Kit

pmor4243

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Recently placed an order for a Procharger HO Kit with a P1X for my 19 Mustang GT PP1 10 speed and have been looking into some tuning options while I wait for the kit to show up.

I had one of the reputable tuners tell me they would not tune the car with boost on pump gas (would only do race fuel or E85) due to the 12:1 compression. Didn't seem to run into this response from a couple of the other tuners I reached out to but it did prompt me to want to double check and make sure I'm not missing anything here.

I'm in Utah at roughly 4,500ft and we do not have access to E85, just 91. There are a few stations near me with good quality 91, which at this elevation I've been told is comparable to 93 in other places. I went with the HO kit due to wanting a modest increase in power on my purely street-driven car. So with mild power goals in mind (sounds like 550ish at the wheels max is what many with the canned tune were making), roughly 8psi of boost if Im lucky at my elevation, and a conservative tune, is it really that unreasonable to run this set up on pump gas? I am also completely fine with adding boostane or octanium to add in some additional safety. Seems strange to me that you could buy a brand new GT with a Roush blower on it and it more or less runs fine, but a low power Procharger kit in the eyes of this tuner on gas is a dumb idea.

I know there are always risks when adding power to a car not designed for it, but with that being said, am I really risking blowing my motor here if I decide to run it on pump gas?

Update (3/23/22):

I wanted to provide a quick update of where I ended up after this process and some things that I learned. I got a lot of good info from others in this thread with similar set up and that was very helpful.

I ordered the HO kit from Beefcake and got it installed on my 19 GT; the install was about as expected. Good directions are provided and nothing in the process is really hard, just time consuming. The HO kit I received did not come with any fueling upgrades and uses the stock fuel pump and injectors. This was one big area of confusion since just about everything I read said that no one would tune the setup with out injectors and at least a BAP. I talked with Procharger on this and with their stage one kit staying under 7 psi of boost, they say the stock fueling is fine. I ended up getting tuned by Wengerd and he had the same thoughts. I also found a handful of others on 18+ GTs that had done exactly what I was doing and did not run into any problems. At the end of the day, I figured that part of what I am paying with a custom tune is the feedback from them tuning hundreds of similar set ups an knowing what the system can and cant handle, so I trusted what Wengerd recommended.

This brings me to the tuning and arguably the biggest thing I contemplated in ordering process. I ordered the complete kit which included a tune from Procharger. My biggest concern with going the "canned" tune route was drivability issues especially with the 10 speed and I was actually ok with giving up a bit of power with a more conservative tune as long as the drivability was there.

Unfortunately the tune from Procharger was just not instilling a lot of confidence. The power was actually not bad and drivability was just fine, but after logging every singe drive after the install so I could see how the car was responding, the fueling was constantly off by quite a bit and I was seeing it go way rich in some areas and lean in others (particularly under boost). It all seemed like something was not scaled correctly in the tuning be that MAF or injectors, but the amount of correction the fuel trims were calling for had me actually chasing a boost/vacuum leak to make sure nothing was loose. After a few back and forths with Procharger (they did provide several revisions and were responsive) they ultimately said everything was good to go. Unfortunately there was very little change in the fueling between the first and last revision.

I ended up going with Wengerd on the tuning for this so that I wouldn’t have to be worried about losing the motor due to tuning. He confirmed that as long as I stayed under 7psi, he could tune the car just fine as is. We had to do one initial revision to get the MAF scaled correctly and with the first revision of that tune, the car was looking 100x better than it did with the Procharger tune. No more crazy corrections on the fuel trims and solid power across the rpm range. I had heard a lot of feedback suggesting that the Procharger tune would be conservative and safe, however, knowing what I know now, I would absolutely have gone with a custom tune out of the gate. It seems most do this for max power, which you definitely pick up some, however I was looking more for correct tuning for a more reliable motor. The Procharger tune had me constantly feeling like I was right on the edge of having some major problems. Wengerd's tune seemed to be right on the money and so far has been driving great. So keep in mind, this is all on the standard HO kit with stock fueling and my max boost being 6.5-7psi at redline. I did have to change the provided pulley to achieve that boost as the pulley that came with the kit barely yielded 4 psi at redline.

All in all, this set up has plenty of power to spin the 275s I have on the car and pulls strong just about everywhere I normally drive. Due to how the power comes on and since I have not gone too crazy on the power levels yet, it is pretty easy to put the power down. The 10 speed makes for a nice match to the power as it has the ability to constantly be in the power band if you want it to be but also has the ability to just put around like a normal car.
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LSchicago

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I call BS. Lund tuned me on a 10# pulley on 93, and some use 12#. With a standard 8# pulley you should be totally fine on 91.
 
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pmor4243

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I call BS. Lund tuned me on a 10# pulley on 93, and some use 12#. With a standard 8# pulley you should be totally fine on 91.
I appreciate the insight. My gut tells me I should be fine given the stated goals but I am completely open to being wrong.
 

Chris Barnes

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you'll need an injector upgrade as well before Lund will tune you.
 
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pmor4243

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you'll need an injector upgrade as well before Lund will tune you.
Thanks Chris. Ya totally fine with getting the right injectors, this was more just around running that set up period with pump gas, obviously assuming the right fueling is in place.
 

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The factory adaptive octane logic enables you to run 91 octane with boost and the 12.1 compression ratio. It relies heavily on knock sensor feedback to advance and retard timing according to the parameters of the tune. You will likely be limited to 16-18 degrees of ignition advance assuming it doesn't knock, obviously it will lower advance if it see's knock. As long as this logic is active in the tune and realistic timing advance is used, it will work just fine.

On most Gen3's and boost you will start to see the power drop off up top on pump 91 or 93 octane because of knock sensor activity. It can be a fine line, but as long as the tune is set up correctly it works. It definitely runs much better once you get some octane in it though.

I'm on the edge with 93 octane and 10psi, I usually only see 12-14 degrees, so I do run octane boosters occasionally and it will see up to 18 degrees, which is where the timing advance cap is placed by Lund. I will likely go up in pulley size (8-9psi) to mitigate knock on pump gas. It sucks, but it is what it is.
 

Chris Barnes

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The factory adaptive octane logic enables you to run 91 octane with boost and the 12.1 compression ratio. It relies heavily on knock sensor feedback to advance and retard timing according to the parameters of the tune. You will likely be limited to 16-18 degrees of ignition advance assuming it doesn't knock, obviously it will lower advance if it see's knock. As long as this logic is active in the tune and realistic timing advance is used, it will work just fine.

On most Gen3's and boost you will start to see the power drop off up top on pump 91 or 93 octane because of knock sensor activity. It can be a fine line, but as long as the tune is set up correctly it works. It definitely runs much better once you get some octane in it though.

I'm on the edge with 93 octane and 10psi, I usually only see 12-14 degrees, so I do run octane boosters occasionally and it will see up to 18 degrees, which is where the timing advance cap is placed by Lund. I will likely go up in pulley size (8-9psi) to mitigate knock on pump gas. It sucks, but it is what it is.
Spot on to my experience
 

mangosmoothie

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I made 9 psi at 8k rpm with 0 knock at 16* peak timing (negative kr actually). Came out to 620 whp. If you keep the pulley that comes in the kit you might make 5-6 psi at that altitude.

I didn't have any fuel mods - my lift pump (in tank pump) held 70+ psi just fine, was not able to log my port duty cycle so I'm not sure how much room is left there. If you really want peace of mind then a DW400 pump (or BAP) and LU47 or LP52 injectors would be totally fine. But again, if you keep the pulley size from the kit, your actual whp at altitude should be 520-550 whp. That's totally within what the stock system will handle.
 
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pmor4243

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I made 9 psi at 8k rpm with 0 knock at 16* peak timing (negative kr actually). Came out to 620 whp. If you keep the pulley that comes in the kit you might make 5-6 psi at that altitude.

I didn't have any fuel mods - my lift pump (in tank pump) held 70+ psi just fine, was not able to log my port duty cycle so I'm not sure how much room is left there. If you really want peace of mind then a DW400 pump (or BAP) and LU47 or LP52 injectors would be totally fine. But again, if you keep the pulley size from the kit, your actual whp at altitude should be 520-550 whp. That's totally within what the stock system will handle.
Thanks for the real world experience guys.
 

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pmor4243

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If you look it up there is definitely e85 in Utah
You're correct. We have one station close to the SLC area that is in Utah Valley that sells it and it tests at E70-E72 throughout the year. I ran my last 19 GT 6 Speed on E85 for about 8 months. Built a barrel cart and loaded a 55 gallon drum in my truck with a rear mounted winch (normally used for loading my bike) and then just filled up with a rotary crank pump from my garage.

All that said, it is definitely not something that I would want to do all of the time. I still have the setup for it, but would 100% rather run a solid pump gas tune and give up some power to do so - at least for the time being. If my power goals change, that would certainly be an option.
 

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Lund tuned p1sc on 10 psi .mak inlet. Lth. Full 3" exhaust. Dw95's with bap on 93 17* timing up top.no knock.no issues. 640whp
 
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I am using the 4.63" pulley, 93, Wengerd Tuned, I am guessing 8.5 psi. With my other mods and an adjusted octane using Boostane, I have seen 17 degrees of timing.

Guessing around 640 whp.
 
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pmor4243

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I definitely appreciate all of the data points from everyone. Hopefully this will be helpful as well for others in my situation.
 

Jackson1320

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You're correct. We have one station close to the SLC area that is in Utah Valley that sells it and it tests at E70-E72 throughout the year. I ran my last 19 GT 6 Speed on E85 for about 8 months. Built a barrel cart and loaded a 55 gallon drum in my truck with a rear mounted winch (normally used for loading my bike) and then just filled up with a rotary crank pump from my garage.

All that said, it is definitely not something that I would want to do all of the time. I still have the setup for it, but would 100% rather run a solid pump gas tune and give up some power to do so - at least for the time being. If my power goals change, that would certainly be an option.
Why not use water/methanol injection?
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