Norm Peterson

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It does indeed. But of course some of those things that are designed in to suspension systems are there to resolve the issue of roll. If that roll motion is not there to the same extent in the first place then it is possible to have less of a compromise on other suspension configuration. If you have to stick a huge ARB on a car to control roll then you will get unwanted secondary effects to that.
If it was a lb for lb swap, that would sound a whole lot better than swapping out maybe 700 lbs or so of ICE engine and transmission for 1000+ lbs of battery plus another 300+ lbs of motor + inverter. IOW, while all of the battery weight and its location helps pull the CG height down, it's working against itself in providing more mass in the mass x moment arm roll moment math. IOW, it's only a net benefit (not a pure gain), and the greater mass comes with other costs (think total vehicle mass and vehicle moments of inertia here).


BTW, I did watch your video link. Just to show you that I tend to look for different things, I saw right away what Porsche did with their wheel and tire package to crutch the impact on handling coming from its 2.5 ton weight.


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Norm Peterson

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I think European makers have gone much more extreme on wheels and tyres on all cars. My Lotus Evora for example has 20" wheels with 285/30 tyres - pretty shallow sidewall. Being a Lotus it actually rides really well despite this - as it seems does the Porsche. Not sure that is an EV thing specifically as the Panamera has very similar size wheels and tyres to the Taycan.
You missed what I'm getting at. Look it again and pay close attention to the relationships between tire section width and wheel width. Turn-in response and steering precision generally improve as wheel fitments tend toward (or a bit past) what you'll see tabulated as maximum recommended for the tire size in question.


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Norm Peterson

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By the same token I don't drive around everyday in a 1970's Capri 3.0 because it is pretty crap by modern standards. Nice for a sunny day maybe, but as cars develop they change and improve and I don't want to ignore those improvements.
I'm all for some of the improvements that have been made since then. Tire technology, EFI, and improved chassis stiffnesses for starters. But I have fairly simple tastes, so I guess I don't look at all changes and developments in the same way as many others seem to. New for its own sake isn't anywhere near being reason enough. 'Improved' gets into value judgments, and those get into still more controversy so I'll just leave it at that.


I'm sure at the time the Capri was seen as the dog's dangly bits, but even rose tinted spectacles aren't going to help now !
Swap a Duratec/Cyclone powertrain into one and give it a wheel and tire package closer to what I'm running on my S197 and you'd be most of the way to something I'd drive on a daily basis. And I wouldn't ever think about what it might "lack" compared to today's cars. Seriously.


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Hack

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Well smells really are not a thing with modern performance cars (unless you are considering catless exhaust)

The question I pose to everyone.... Have you ever actually driven an EV (Tesla or Mach E equivalent, not compliance crap like a Prius or leaf)? You might be singing a different tune if you experience the instant acceleration and 0-60 times under 2-3sec in addition to the extremely low center of gravity.... Then consider the fact that these cars were not designed as sports cars and imagine what a purpose built EV sports car can do.... (yes manuals could be included in that purpose built EV)
I've ridden motorcycles that were way faster than any car I've owned. And they were also much less expensive. However, I have NEVER purchased a motorcycle - and I don't plan to. Acceleration is not everything.

I'm not saying I'll never buy an electric car. However I will say that electric cars are crappy compared to ICE right now. They are not competitive at all.

I commend you for fighting the good fight but you are simply not going to convince some people no matter how many times you try to explain it. These are the people that will be dragged along kicking and screaming while the rest of the world moves forward.
It's not necessarily forward. If it were forward, there would be no government incentives needed and Tesla would have sold millions and would be bigger than Ford by now.

And I'll borrow an argument from Jason Cammisa. It's like sexual orientation. You can say all you want. But you won't convince me that I'm going to prefer electric over an ICE. Just like you won't convince me that I should choose a man over a woman.

I wouldn't pick an EV unless there are some scientific breakthroughs that completely transform electric cars. And even if an electric car can be recharged in a minute or two becoming competitive with the time in which an ICE can be refueled I may still never choose one.

Many people want their engine to be silent. I'm not one of them. I actually like the sound an ICE makes. I'm one of those people who has deliberately made their exhaust louder. Between that and my love for the rush that comes as engine RPMs increase, I think I would be bored by an EV. Even if the EV is 1 second 0-60 I might be bored, because maximum acceleration is at the beginning and then it tapers off. I prefer the acceleration to build.

That was one thing I didn't like about my Z06. There was too much torque down low and I didn't feel the torque build enough as the engine revved higher. The GT350 was much more enjoyable in that way. The power kept building as the engine revved.
 

Gregs24

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And I'll borrow an argument from Jason Cammisa. It's like sexual orientation. You can say all you want. But you won't convince me that I'm going to prefer electric over an ICE. Just like you won't convince me that I should choose a man over a woman.
I can't think of a more ridiculous comparison. People don't choose their sexuality like they choose their car.

I'm lost for words - which is probably a good thing as this forum is no place for such comments.
 
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Gregs24

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Swap a Duratec/Cyclone powertrain into one and give it a wheel and tire package closer to what I'm running on my S197 and you'd be most of the way to something I'd drive on a daily basis. And I wouldn't ever think about what it might "lack" compared to today's cars. Seriously.


Norm
It would lack 50 years of automotive development. Probably the single biggest one being chassis design, use of HS steels and composites. Those old Capri's had the torsional rigidity of a 3 day old lettuce !

An amusing aside. TVR went out of production a while back and they are trying to restart under a different owner. They used an old Sagaris chassis as a mule for suspension testing but the results were not making any sense. They went firmer on springs and dampers and it made no difference until they realised the chassis was flexing more and more the stiffer they went.
 

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You missed what I'm getting at. Look it again and pay close attention to the relationships between tire section width and wheel width. Turn-in response and steering precision generally improve as wheel fitments tend toward (or a bit past) what you'll see tabulated as maximum recommended for the tire size in question.


Norm
Yes - but as I mentioned they use pretty much the same on the ICE Panamera, so not an EV thing per se. Porsche (as Lotus) are prioritising handling. This is the rear wheel tyre combination on my Lotus which is very similar to the Porsche.

IMAG0037.jpg
 

Norm Peterson

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I can't think of a more ridiculous comparison. People don't choose their sexuality like they choose their car.
Ridiculous comparison? Perhaps.

But I think the point is that differences are going to exist in the way different people choose their cars. At some point it's not going to matter whether an individual's preferences were completely beyond their control or if they were strong enough to be essentially non-negotiable.


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Norm Peterson

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It would lack 50 years of automotive development. Probably the single biggest one being chassis design, use of HS steels and composites. Those old Capri's had the torsional rigidity of a 3 day old lettuce !
That can be remedied.

Supplemental stiffening buys you more improvement when you're starting with a structure that isn't as rigid. I have a feeling that 10,000 ft*lbs/degree would be sufficiently stiff for a 2500-ish lb car on street tires and a suspension that was at least tolerable on typical roads.


My real point was that I'd be fine with a 1970's car as long as you threw a bit more power and better cornering capability at it. I wasn't trying to establish a complete set of design choices.

One of my 1970s cars, as modified, circa 1975. I'd still drive something like that, though these days I'd need to install A/C because I don't cope with summer heat nearly as well as I did back then.
Pinto3.jpg



Norm
 
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NoVaGT

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The clarity loss is yours.

You can't even get the figures right - over 17% of all cars on the road in Norway are now EV or PHEV with 54% of new cars EV, so increasing fast. Pretty close to the 20% you say is impossible.

I completely understand if you don't like EV's but don't make stuff up to suit your narrative.

1613861539945.png
Only 12.2% EVs. Don't make stuff up to suit your narrative.

They won't get to 20%. They can't. They don't have the electrical power production or distribution capacity.

I don't like or dislike EVs.
 

Mikthehun1

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Only 12.2% EVs. Don't make stuff up to suit your narrative.

They won't get to 20%. They can't. They don't have the electrical power production or distribution capacity.

I don't like or dislike EVs.
What's wrong with including hybrids to inflate the numbers? It's like reporting your income as the gross, rather than take home :crackup:
 

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