Hellion TT/Alluminator replacement options

So, my stock compression alluminator let go last week.
Long story but I have already gone in to the details on my other thread.
I am looking at options for an engine replacement and almost pulled the trigger(I actually did but credit card payment did not go through despite adequate funds in my "mod saving account" which may be a sign!) on a 5.2 sleeved block I was going to pair with GT 350 heads I can get for a relative deal.
One of my other "mod" funds recently got discovered by "Wife-eye" (warning radius not limited like wifi)so I was kind of eager to use this other fund before it also got busted.lol

I had also previously (before blown motor) considered a GT 350 engine swap but talked myself out of it knowing I would never be able to run much boost as I was still chasing 9's. However since Hellion announced the first TT GT 350 I am again giving it serious consideration

Since I almost pulled the trigger there have been some life changing events and I now really need to consider buying my daughter a safe 4 wheel drive so may need to consider a cheaper option to replace the engine.

Let’s just say one of my favorite cars is most likely going to be totaled (I thank God she is safe) and I have no intention of replacing it with a similar premium car.

I have gone over the pros and cons of a GT 350 engine vs sleeved block so many times in my head but here it is on paper. As you will see the pros and overwhelmingly in favor of the GT 350 engine

GT350 engine.

Pros-I don't feel I need to make as much power as I did before and if I can run 10's on a safe tune and low boost level I may be happy.
I already reached my drag racing goal of mid 9’s @140's for the car and have already been asked to slow down or not run again at the closest and my favorite track in Indy. I can run the car at a couple of other tracks without the required roll cage but they are several hours away. To be honest I have felt quite uneasy the last few passes I made knowing I don't have the recommended (for good reason) safety gear for the speed I was going. I don't do any competitive drag racing (just a test and tuner/collector of bragging rights! lol) so have no intention of putting a cage in the car. I certainly have no intention of shooting for an 8 second pass so a sleeved block may be overkill.

I already have a GT350, which makes the most glorious sound, is fast enough for the street but I have wondered if it would be even more fun with a little bit of boost. I am not a 100 % sure it needs it but this would be a fun way to find out. Having a N/A aspirated manual GT350 and Hellion boosted auto GT with a Voodoo would be kind of be like having your cake and eating it

I was never impressed with the exhaust note of my Hellion car and if it would still sound a little like the GT 350(I expect the turbo's will muffle the sound a bit) with the same engine that would be the icing on the cake

The GT350 engine is fully dressed and available compared to the 4-6 weeks I am told it will take to build the 5.2.I would have to use engine components from my alluminator to complete that build but with the GT 350 engine, I could potentially repair the alluminator (swap in better pistons) for relatively cheap and have a complete dressed engine I could sell towards the cost of the GT350 engine or keep as a “spare" for if I really felt the need to turn up the boost again(hopefully with the Voodoo still intact)


Finally if I ever decided to sell the car, I think it may increase its value as compared to having a rebuilt alluminator or even a sleeved 5.2(which may be limited to a drag racing crowd).
I doubt there are going to be many more Voodoo swapped cars especially since the crate motor is not available for sale(don’t ask me how I can get one).
I can also confirm there will be no more Voodoo engines built after the 2017 GT 350.


The cons:
I won’t be able to turn up the boost or go as fast (unless I swap in the alluminator again).
Only God know how much boost is "safe".
Hellion said they needed to make changes to GT kit fit the GT 350.I have wondered how they would tap the oil pain since it is lightweight plastic on the GT350.

Tuning-As we all know the GT 350 engine has a different firing order. My tuner thinks it doable to keep the GT ECU and make changes to the tune so it will run.
I would hate to do the swap and then not be able to have it tuned,

The GT350 engine and the 5.2 sleeved engine build (including the heads) will cost roughly the same with slightly less labor for the complete engine install.
Alternatively I could just choose option 3 and simply rebuild my alluminator for 1/10 th of the price of option 1 and 2.
I could use better pistons (2618) and use sleeve supports.
I know some here feel they are like snake oil but for the price, worth a try in case they do work.
I would of course keep the boost down(I may not need as much since I will finally get to use the MMR valve springs I bought months ago).
Funny thing is with my buddy's help I could rebuild that engine including R&R /upgrading the valve springs for not much more than I was about to pay to have the springs installed with the engine in the car

I know this is a LONG read, so If you took the time, THANKS.

I am really looking for some other opinions, perspective and especially any potential pitfalls with the GT350 engine I may have overlooked (other than “dude that engine was not meant to be boosted”) lol.

I still suspect tuning may be an issue .

Sounds like you have a game plan, look at what Lethal Performance accomplished on their Whippled GT350, the gains are there on a stock Voodoo, even further than the V3 Coyote. If it turns out to be cheaper than the sleeved block, Id do it. Theres also uniqueness to it... not many will be doing such builds and you may be the first (more bragging rights to you). Now, what in the world happened with your Aluminator?

IMO, I'd forget everything GT350, just do a simple MPR stock block, pistons/rods, and have them go through your heads disassembled/cleaned/valve job, arp hardware. It'll cost under $5500 if you reuse your stock block/crank, it'll hold 1000, the down time and cost will be the least/minimal. If you need more then 1000 then darton sleeve.

Then let Ken tune it and be done with it, his hellion tune is buttery smooth.

Why not re-build the old motor since it is cheaper and just buy the best of everything for it. With the money saved ship the car to the tuner that tunes Hellion's cars?

D3adch1ld said:

Sounds like you have a game plan, look at what Lethal Performance accomplished on their Whippled GT350, the gains are there on a stock Voodoo, even further than the V3 Coyote. If it turns out to be cheaper than the sleeved block, Id do it. Theres also uniqueness to it... not many will be doing such builds and you may be the first (more bragging rights to you). Now, what in the world happened with your Aluminator?

Click to expand...

Thanks man.
Not really sure yet but no compression on cylinder 8 and low on 6.
I assume the pistons gave out. I was kind of rushed making the pass so I had not set up my computer to log. Funny how that happens since I have logged almost every other pass/dyno pull I have made with the car.

The logs of the dyno pulls and previous 9.5 pass(week before) looked good per tuner. Timing was 23-24 and AFR's 0.78-0.82 WOT. Short term fuel trims were getting up there(1.08) on the dyno pull that made 960 [email protected] peak psi (average was nore like 18).I had the boost controller set a duty cycle that made 14-15 psi peak boost with cutouts closed on the ill fated pass(peak boost was 14.2)
To be honest I have beat up on that alluminator since I replaced the blown stock engine with 3000 miles.
I must have over 50 passes last year and this year on race gas running 10.3-10.0@133-139.
Since the switch to E85 I must have at least six 9 second passes.
I know the 4032 alloy mahle pistons are not supposed to be able to take so much boost and punishment as the 2618 alloy piston might have.
I will find out in a couple of weeks when my buddy drops of the former on 3 car(now with 3,2 KB and built non sleeved block) and picks up this car.

Burnin4 said:

IMO, I'd forget everything GT350, just do a simple MPR stock block, pistons/rods, and have them go through your heads disassembled/cleaned/valve job, arp hardware. It'll cost under $5500 if you reuse your stock block/crank, it'll hold 1000, the down time and cost will be the least/minimal. If you need more then 1000 then darton sleeve.

Then let Ken tune it and be done with it, his hellion tune is buttery smooth.

Click to expand...

.
I am really interested in seeing hellion's results(boost,dyno and track numbers) with their GT350.Obviously they won't have any resuts on "how long" the engine will last even at the low boost levels I am sure they will be running.

I really want a "5.2" so if I don't do the GT 350/rebuild the engine alluminator I might as well sleeve the block to 5.2 /add the GT350 heads(build my very own cross plane built "voodoo") and 'forget about it" .

It may still be overkill for my intended use of the car. I am not sure I want to make (or have the balls) an 8 second pass but I would worry less knowing I have that cushion.

JadedGT said:

Why not re-build the old motor since it is cheaper and just buy the best of everything for it. With the money saved
ship the car to the tuner that tunes Hellion's cars?

Click to expand...

If I rebuilt the motor(cheapest option) swapping to better pistons may be all I need to make 900-1000 rwhp safely,provided the block holds up.
I would see no point upgrading the rods if the block would be the power limiting factor at that point. With my buddies help I could rebuild/R&R that motor for just over $1000 including cost of machining since my buddy charges very little for assembly/R&R.


Again Thank you guys so much for your perspectives. It does help a lot.

Sleeved block coyote engine. Send the car to CPR so the rest of us can have a single turbo kit for the 2015's.

I am going either with a TT setup or a Procharged route just waiting for Vendors to get back to me. :( There are two great TT shops in the Houston area I just not getting much of a reply from them my questions might be too newbie to ask.

I would not do a voodoo flat plane crank yet they are not proven at all. The lethal car has very limited testing. I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig for testing.

Thanks guys
Also spoke to Tim at MPR.Great guy who was very pleasant and helpful .

He strongly advised against the 5.2 as he has seen the blocks crack even when sleeved (due to too little material left after the increased bore).So back to a 5.0 sleeved or not .

I want to get going ASAP and don't want to wait on engine R&R to see if I can reuse the block so rebuilding is also out.It looks like it will be a Livernois block in part due to proximity to my buddy .I would also have loved to have done business with Tim based on our conversation but I feel a Livernois block will also be top notch and will have the least down time overall.

There is a $3.5 K split between the "race and pro" block so need to make up my mind quick,pay and get this build started(and quit debating myself).

I know this debate of sleeved vs sleeved has been had many times.

My head tells me to just do it right now rather than spend energy worrying about it if I cheap out. $3.5K is a lot of coin just for "peace of mind" though. lol.

As I said before, I am not really looking to make more than 1000 HP .Not interested in running 8's(low 9's may be)

To be honest the GT 350 heads are not a MUST especially now I am no longer looking at a 5.2 block(per ford racing you lose a bit with the GT350 heads and 5.0 vs the 5.2 due to some shrouding of the valves'). I may just stick to the stock heads if they are healthy (the engine had a tick that we thought was due to bad valve lifters ). I also already have the MMR valve springs tuner recommended upgrading to.

If I am going to have to spend money/time fixing the valve train GT 350 heads it will be .

Thanks again for all the advice guys .Very helpful !

On a closely related topic my buddy is close to being done with my other build on my on3 car.

This Started as a budget rebuild with the block that was originally in the Hellion.
I got the Manley forged rotating assembly/OPG/crank gear/head/main studs from MMR with a 10% discount.

Machining and balancing of assembly cost $500 and my buddy reassembled block all for less than $3000 with billet supports(remember budget build)

Turns out block(that was in car)/heads/cams are trashed but I was fortunate to get a BNIB set of GT 350 heads for pricing of stock heads.I debated on using COMP blower cams but will be sticking with new stock cams.

We had to get MMR modified rocker arms to use the stock cams.We also got "upgraded" MMR GT 350 springs which turned out to be too stiff and cant get engine to turn over.The stock springs work so sticking with them.

I was able to sell the on3 kit which part financed the 3.2 KB/10 rib/20% ATI balancer replacing it,
SW headers with cats and Gibson cat back with cutouts already on car.

Triple pump JPC system with ID1000's already on car.N gauge to tune by Lund but will come handy on other cars running e85 to monitor alcohol content.

RXT clutch left over from the auto swap on my 12.MGW that I had bought over a year ago while car was with on3.One piece drive shaft already on car.1500 Ford raving axles will be installed when car returns.It already had the Steeda "stop the hop".

APR splitter also on return.

He is almost done.Engine is back in bay.Blower install remaining.
When he drops the KB car off he will take the Hellion car back to Michigan.
His being close to Livernois was an additional factor in deciding to use them(no shipping) along with his recommendation of course.

I should be plenty occupied getting to know the KB car while he sorts out the Hellion car

olaosunt said:

Thanks guys
Also spoke to Tim at MPR.Great guy who was very pleasant and helpful .

He strongly advised against the 5.2 as he has seen the blocks crack even when sleeved (due to too little material left after the increased bore).So back to a 5.0 sleeved or not.

Click to expand...

Not doubting but just curious where these cracked sleeved 5.2s are? Are they Voodoos or the A52XS motors? Are these N/A? Cause I have barely even heard of a handful of boosted 5.2 motors much less any that have actually done anything significant.

Like I said, not doubting, just curious since I thought Ford reinforced the 5.2 blocks.

Was thinking tonight, who is tuning these cars?

MadCow said:

Not doubting but just curious where these cracked sleeved 5.2s are? Are they Voodoos or the A52XS motors? Are these N/A? Cause I have barely even heard of a handful of boosted 5.2 motors much less any that have actually done anything significant.

Like I said, not doubting, just curious since I thought Ford reinforced the 5.2 blocks.

Click to expand...

Coyotes bored out to 5.2. Most recommend keeping the 5.0 and sleeving it if going for big boost to keep the extra material around the cylinder. 5.2 would be generally for aggressive N/A builds.

esacteksab said:

Was thinking tonight, who is tuning these cars?

Click to expand...

Me too.

Barrel said:

Coyotes bored out to 5.2. Most recommend keeping the 5.0 and sleeving it if going for big boost to keep the extra material around the cylinder. 5.2 would be generally for aggressive N/A builds.

Click to expand...

OK this makes sense. I don't understand why anyone would go so big on the bore with a boosted coyote. If anything I would sleeve it down for big boost.

So the strength of the 5.2 block is still an unknown quantity. Ford supposedly reinforced the water jackets and other areas of the block plus the spray cylinder liner may also allow for more meat behind those "large" bores. A voodoo block sleeved down to 5.0 may be the bees knees. With that said I am going against the grain and vote for olaosunt to go with a boosted GT350 turning maybe 7500 rpm. Its not the cheap choice or the practical choice but it is different. And I like different, especially when its not my money lol.

MadCow said:

OK this makes sense. I don't understand why anyone would go so big on the bore with a boosted coyote. If anything I would sleeve it down for big boost.

So the strength of the 5.2 block is still an unknown quantity. Ford supposedly reinforced the water jackets and other areas of the block plus the spray cylinder liner may also allow for more meat behind those "large" bores. A voodoo block sleeved down to 5.0 may be the bees knees. With that said I am going against the grain and vote for olaosunt to go with a boosted GT350 turning maybe 7500 rpm. Its not the cheap choice or the practical choice but it is different. And I like different, especially when its not my money lol.

Click to expand...

So,is there consensus that boring to 5.2, even if sleeved is not a good idea on big boosted cars?

How much is "big boost'
I had no plans for over 20-21 psi at the max.

Car already made well over 900 @18 psi(18.9) peak and will probably make more if I upgrade the valve springs

20 psi will probably make "1000 HP" which may be nice to brag about but
is not my goal.
Hellion said the 55's can make up to 1100 HP with upgraded springs which is fine as I don't have any need for more.

MMR said the block sleeved Voodoo block they built for Beefcake is the "strongest yet" but no sure how they "tested" that theory.

I need to ask them if the sleeved 5.2 non voodoo block is also good to 1500 HP and if they will warranty if it is not.LOL

To be honest having a block good to "1500 HP" will tempt me to "up" my power accordingly which will mean ,turbo and fuel upgrades(even more spending).