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My Comp Cams and GT350 manifold results (spoiler alert: it's not good)

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Kahboom said:
Did you have Dyno numbers before you tore a back down and then Dyno it again or are these just the final numbers. Something seems off man
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No, the numbers I have are the baseline--full exhaust, CAI, and tune--and then the final results. There was no sense in dynoing the car when the timing was off--it was something Lund could see in the first datalog.

I can only assume that the loss in power is due to the cams. There are plenty of GT350 manifold dyno graphs out there, so we know pretty much what to expect.
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Are you sure you have the correct cams? Maybe sent mislabeled pair?
 
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UAmach1 said:
Are you sure you have the correct cams? Maybe sent mislabeled pair?
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When Lund initially said there was an issue with the cams, he said that they looked like 11-14 cams from the datalog, so I contacted Comp and they said that the 11-14 cams won't fit a 2015+ Mustang. The shop the car was at for the remote tune later told me that they verified with Comp that the cams were correct. Comp said the cams themselves have serial numbers on them that should match what was on the boxes, and I sent pics of the numbers to the shop.
 
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Dragster, do you have any data logs from your ngauge, with these new cams, you can email to me? I'm pretty knowledgeable about how the stage 3 cams should look like during wot vs stock cams. Something is way off. A CJ manifold with stage 3 cams is sucking in the same amount of air as a GT350 manifold with stock cams until about 5700 rpm, according to maf numbers I've seen. After that, the CJ starts to sing with cams. Send them to [email protected] if you have any!

Are you absolutely positive your cams are not off by a tooth or 2?
 
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Thanks for the log! Here is a quick review. I will try to get more info after I look at it some more.

*disclaimer* I will not post intake and exhaust cam timing values to protect the hard work that Lund or any other tuner have done.

But I can tell you this:

  • MAF AIR readings look great.
  • Cam timing is absolutely identical to another +500 rwhp, comp cam stg.3, LUND tuned setup running a CJ intake manifold from 5500rpm and up. I will look more into the lower rpm range when I get a chance.
  • Spark/ignition timing looks really good for 93 octane. Don't worry about not having E85.
So Jon Jr. is commanding the cams to do their job but the power is just not there. Your maf readings suggest that the motor is injesting air at a decent rate too. I noticed that you do have kooks green cats. By chance, have you taken a look at them recently? Maybe a clogged side or both????
 

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I was getting over 52lb/Min maf readings when I was N/A. Catless longtubes, boss mani, stock cams, e85
 
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This is not surprising to me. Max effort NA comp cams are known to lose power below 5500 rpm but to help that you are choking it off by using the gt350 intake and a stock to. Your setup is all mixed up . You want max flow with the cams then get a matching intake manifold and Tb. I gained hp and tq down low when switching to the Cobra Jet from the Gt350.
 
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Bob, thanks for checking out the logs! I have not checked the cats, but the baseline for the car was strong, and it was barely driven between the baseline and the datalogs, so I can't imagine that they are the culprit.

Can you tell from the logs if it's possible that the cam timing is off a tooth or two? I did all the install work with the help of a friend, but when we initially found that the car had an issue, I didn't have the time to tear it back down, so I left it at the shop and had them tear it down and verify the cams were correct, along with re-timing the engine and putting everything back together. So I wasn't able to personally verify the timing after it was put back together, but Lund was saying that all the logs looked good.

I suppose in the end it's possible that the stage 3 cams just don't work nearly as well with the GT350 manifold as they do with the Cobra Jet manifold.
 
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09jsw said:
This is not surprising to me. Max effort NA comp cams are known to lose power below 5500 rpm but to help that you are choking it off by using the gt350 intake and a stock to. Your setup is all mixed up . You want max flow with the cams then get a matching intake manifold and Tb. I gained hp and tq down low when switching to the Cobra Jet from the Gt350.
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Yeah, I expected to lose power down low, but not as much as I did, and not all the way to 6K. I also expected the loss to be offset by the gain up top, which didn't happen in my case. A loss in 3/4 of the power band isn't justified for only ~20 hp for the last 1/4.

I went with the stock throttle body because Lund said there was no power to be gained with the GT350 throttle body.

EDIT: Totally unrelated, but also annoying: the main accessory drive belt has shredded a rib, too. Seems like there's an alignment issue with the balancer or one of the pulleys after the car was put back together. Another reason I want to do all the labor myself so I can make sure everything is put back together correctly... :tsk:
 
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Dragster said:
Bob, thanks for checking out the logs! I have not checked the cats, but the baseline for the car was strong, and it was barely driven between the baseline and the datalogs, so I can't imagine that they are the culprit.

Can you tell from the logs if it's possible that the cam timing is off a tooth or two? I did all the install work with the help of a friend, but when we initially found that the car had an issue, I didn't have the time to tear it back down, so I left it at the shop and had them tear it down and verify the cams were correct, along with re-timing the engine and putting everything back together. So I wasn't able to personally verify the timing after it was put back together, but Lund was saying that all the logs looked good.

I suppose in the end it's possible that the stage 3 cams just don't work nearly as well with the GT350 manifold as they do with the Cobra Jet manifold.
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Based off the log you sent me, I can not tell if the cams are off a tooth either way. They are responding correctly though. I did notice that you were not logging IMRC action. It would be interesting to know if the runners were operating correctly. I guess you would get a cel if they weren't. :shrug:. I will look some more this evening.
 

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GTBOB said:
Based off the log you sent me, I can not tell if the cams are off a tooth either way. They are responding correctly though. I did notice that you were not logging IMRC action. It would be interesting to know if the runners were operating correctly. I guess you would get a cel if they weren't. :shrug:. I will look some more this evening.
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This could explain some of the loss down low.
 

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GTBOB said:
Based off the log you sent me, I can not tell if the cams are off a tooth either way. They are responding correctly though. I did notice that you were not logging IMRC action. It would be interesting to know if the runners were operating correctly. I guess you would get a cel if they weren't. :shrug:. I will look some more this evening.
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Depends. My most recent tune for the blower with boss had the IMRC CEL's all coming on during the initial tune. They were turned off, but logging IMRC position last night still showed a voltage reading. My previous tunes all had 0 for volts. Not sure if that reading makes a difference in the tune anywhere.
 
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Update: I went back and forth with Comp Cams for a while, and they basically told me to try a different tuner. They recommended I contact someone at Brenspeed--I believe they said someone there has the same setup.

To be honest, I'm really just sick of it all, and I'm still in the same position I was after I first got the car tuned and saw the numbers: either swap out for a Cobra Jet setup or reinstall the stock cams. I have my doubts that Brenspeed would be able to make a significant difference in terms of the tune, and I don't know if they would be able to do a tune with an Ngauge. I have no interest in buying another tuner.
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