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Camaro giant leaps, Mustang just enough (SS vs. GT)

ClevelandV8

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Honestly, I don't know what you're talking about. The interior of my SS 1LE is great. The last gen interior was complete shit, but the new one is perfectly fine.

It isn't luxury car quality, but that is to be expected for the price. The Mustang interior certainly isn't any nicer.

I don't care much about whether people laugh at a camaro. It's performance is my main concern. Its clear that you do care about perception because you mention it in every post.

While a 135is may perform pretty well on track for a car of its gen, rest well knowing that the same people laughing at a camaro are laughing at a 1 series thinking that one, it's ugly, and two, it's all the BMW you could afford. They are great cars, but boy do they scream chick car. I'd rather be mistaken for white trash than some yuppie chick whose daddy bought them a one series for their sweet 16.
Jeez, today I bet most people don't even know what a mullet is anymore. Some people are just stuck in the past. The '70s and 80's ended long ago.

I drove a 3 series BMW awhile back and was totally unimpressed. Pretentious people only drive these cars because there is a blue and white beach ball logo on the car.
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Tony Alonso

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The threads with name calling and bickering were deleted. Posters who continue to comment in that way will either be put on moderated status or have their accounts suspended for 14 days. Please keep the personal attacks out of the discussion.
 

Childs Play

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It's not the interior that's the problem, it's seeing out of the interior that's the issue. ;)



Yup.

Not knocking the Camaro (one of my best car buddies drives a '10 SS), but I drove a 5th Gen and the low seating position/roof line and limited outward visibility leaves a lot to be desired.
The 5th gen Camaro was a s*** show to try to change lanes in... Ask me how I know...

The 6th gen has definitely “improved” on this. I say it in quotes because it still could use some work for sure. However I can actually look over my shoulder and see things next to me/slightly behind me to safely make a lane change. Or... more realistically, be lazy and just look at my blind spot monitors. :ninja:

To be fair however, I’ve never bought a sports car of any kind being worried about seeing perfectly out of it in all directions. If I wanted that I’d just buy a single cab pickup. But to each their own. I feel people get hung up on that one detail too much. Although in a lot of ways it DOES make since to want a car with perfect visibility.

If there was one thing I wish they’d fix on the Camaro it’s the damn dash cluster location/height. However that’s on almost any GM vehicle. If you put the wheel down you can’t see most of it. I’m convinced they design vehicles for people who are less than 5’ tall.
 

16 GT MM/Auto

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The 5th gen Camaro was a s*** show to try to change lanes in... Ask me how I know...

The 6th gen has definitely “improved” on this. I say it in quotes because it still could use some work for sure.
I appreciate your honesty. I mentioned the visibility issue because reviews of '16+ models didn't seem to change on that.

For some people that's a deal breaker, for others, not. I provide the quotes below just to show you I wasn't making that up:

"... seeing out of the gun-slit windows is a pain.
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...ure-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-ss-zl1-coupes-page-4

- The Camaro has a narrow greenhouse, unknowable corners, near-zero rear visibility,
- “It’s hard to imagine that Chevy could have made it less practical if it tried,”
- The words “gun slit,” “periscope,” and “cave” appear so many times in our notes that we have forever banished them from the C/D lexicon.
- Stevie Wonder has a better sense of where his car is than the Camaro driver in some situations.
- It’s a dilemma, and it’s one that nearly half of us won’t tolerate—even in exchange for all the dynamic blessings.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-long-term-test-review

The important thing is you like the car and are happy, good luck!

p.s. great color :)
 

Childs Play

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I appreciate your honesty. I mentioned the visibility issue because reviews of '16+ models didn't seem to change on that.

For some people that's a deal breaker, for others, not. I provide the quotes below just to show you I wasn't making that up:

"... seeing out of the gun-slit windows is a pain.
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...ure-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-ss-zl1-coupes-page-4

- The Camaro has a narrow greenhouse, unknowable corners, near-zero rear visibility,
- “It’s hard to imagine that Chevy could have made it less practical if it tried,”
- The words “gun slit,” “periscope,” and “cave” appear so many times in our notes that we have forever banished them from the C/D lexicon.
- Stevie Wonder has a better sense of where his car is than the Camaro driver in some situations.
- It’s a dilemma, and it’s one that nearly half of us won’t tolerate—even in exchange for all the dynamic blessings.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-long-term-test-review

The important thing is you like the car and are happy, good luck!

p.s. great color :)
Haha. I’ve read the reviews. I don’t discredit you on that. For plenty of people it’s a deal breaker. One thing I found is that the gray interior helped with the cavernous feel of the Camaro. Brightened it up and made it feel more open.

Also, thanks. I love the color as well. :thumbsup: Nothing like the loudest color on a car that can throw your neck out of wack. Lol
 

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16 GT MM/Auto

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Haha. I’ve read the reviews. I don’t discredit you on that. For plenty of people it’s a deal breaker. One thing I found is that the gray interior helped with the cavernous feel of the Camaro. Brightened it up and made it feel more open.

Also, thanks. I love the color as well. :thumbsup: Nothing like the loudest color on a car that can throw your neck out of wack. Lol
Your color reminds me of the Race Red '13 GT I had, got links to pics of your ride?

Actually, I get along great with SS guys. My buddy stopped by a while back, here's his '10 SS that he bought new.
IMG_0033.JPG
 

Childs Play

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Your color reminds me of the Race Red '13 GT I had, got links to pics of your ride?

Actually, I get along great with SS guys. My buddy stopped by a while back, here's his '10 SS that he bought new.
Nice! Definitely one of the better colors from the 5th gen imo. My first Camaro was a 2012 and it was Imperial Blue Metallic. I didn't really get into bright Reds until it happened to be the only ZL1 available on the lot. I've been hooked on the color ever since. :headbang:

Unfortunately I really haven't done much as far as a decent photo session goes. But this is how it sits in the garage currently.
IMG_8443.jpg
IMG_8444.jpg
 

16 GT MM/Auto

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... Unfortunately I really haven't done much as far as a decent photo session goes. But this is how it sits in the garage currently.
Nice!

Here's me with some of my Camaro friends (shhh, don't tell anyone!).

And a Red on Red shot. :cheers:
1239513_557753757611844_1623269402_n.jpg
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1320'

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Your color reminds me of the Race Red '13 GT I had, got links to pics of your ride?

Actually, I get along great with SS guys. My buddy stopped by a while back, here's his '10 SS that he bought new.
That's the aqua blue color, right? The one they only made for like..half a model year for MY2010?

Beautiful cars, both!
 

16 GT MM/Auto

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That's the aqua blue color, right? The one they only made for like..half a model year for MY2010?

Beautiful cars, both!
I believe that is correct, as I recall my friend saying it was a limited color and that's why he's kept it so long.
 

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Quinten33

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The Camaro is worlds ahead in the Chassis and handling side of things, and the mustang has better powertrains and interiors, and they play off their own strengths. I'd expect the next gen Mustang to get lighter and the next Camaro to gain better visibility and interior quality. The big issue with the evolution of the mustang is that the suspension and chassis have been secondary to looks and power during the engineering processes. There's no way they can beat the alpha platform directly, but they can at least try. I believe that the Camaro looks good aside from base models with tiny rims a canyons worth of wheel gap. The visibility is something that all Camaro owners stop complaining about after a while, especially when they have all the safety features. I would like to see a Camaro with sizeable windows, a sizeable trunk opening, and actual interior storage. Heck, copy and paste the s550 interior into a 6th gen Camaro.

I'm a Camaro guy, but I respect the success of the Mustang winning. Both GM and Ford where they want to win. "Chevy stone-cold out-engineered Ford" is how Johnny Lieberman describes the current Camaro vs Mustang battle. This is the greatest rivalry in American History, and I hope it never ends.
 

Loki-GT

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Doesn't really matter how great the Camaro is as a car when you need a mullet to drive one.
Now that there, that's funny!! :lol:
 

Shane361

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Meh...the 02SS is a fav of mine. Anything after that is hideous as if Batman designed it. The Challenger IMO although a boat looks the best in terms of bringing back the old school muscle. It won't however IMO be able to continue the appeal as Mustang will.
 

TheLion

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The Camaro is worlds ahead in the Chassis and handling side of things, and the mustang has better powertrains and interiors, and they play off their own strengths. I'd expect the next gen Mustang to get lighter and the next Camaro to gain better visibility and interior quality. The big issue with the evolution of the mustang is that the suspension and chassis have been secondary to looks and power during the engineering processes. There's no way they can beat the alpha platform directly, but they can at least try. I believe that the Camaro looks good aside from base models with tiny rims a canyons worth of wheel gap. The visibility is something that all Camaro owners stop complaining about after a while, especially when they have all the safety features. I would like to see a Camaro with sizeable windows, a sizeable trunk opening, and actual interior storage. Heck, copy and paste the s550 interior into a 6th gen Camaro.

I'm a Camaro guy, but I respect the success of the Mustang winning. Both GM and Ford where they want to win. "Chevy stone-cold out-engineered Ford" is how Johnny Lieberman describes the current Camaro vs Mustang battle. This is the greatest rivalry in American History, and I hope it never ends.
This ^. The 2nd gen 5.0 and the LS 6.2 make literally almost identical total power from 2000 RPM to their respective red lines. Displacement doesn't matter as much as it used to when you throw in cam phasing and direct injection with total external size constraints (how wide or tall can it get before it won't fit in a chassis).

DOHC / VVT and DI allow you to make a mechanically more efficient engine, but DOHC / VVT increase the size and weight at a given displacement both of which have performance disadvantages (there's no free lunch!). DI is more R&D intensive to develop and more finnicky to tune as opposed to Port Injection and also suffers from intake valve fouling issues, but allows you more control over timing, resulting in better overall power across the rev range, just like DOHC / VVT allow for. Each has it's won pros and cons. A pushrod 5.0 would be much lighter and more compact than a DOHC / VVT 5.0, but would not be capable of making as much total power as the DOHC / VVT 5.0. A DOHC / VVT 6.2 would make more power than a push-rod 6.2 but would be much physically larger and heavier. Combine DOHC / VVT and DI in a smaller displacement (the new Gen 3), the you have the best of both worlds without increasing external size or weight to unseemly proportions.

Going to DOHC would make the LS ungainly huge and heavy even if it would make quite a bit more total power if combined with DI than the current LS 6.2 or the Gen 2 5.0. So they are stuck with push-rod and DI or they have to move in the direction Ford did with a smaller but more mechanically efficient DOHC / VVT + DI/PI unless they are willing to make very large engine bays and add substantial weight to the chassis. Obviously Ford chose dual injection to get the benefits of DI but with the reliability of PI. There's only so far you can push a push rod architecture when DOHC / VVT, DI and computer control systems are available to the smaller displacement architectures. It's impressive what they have done with the 6.2, but there's not much left in it without eating into safety margins and pushing the timing closer to detonation or going with a new architecture. I suppose they could hard the rotating assembly and rev it up more, but torque falls FAST on the 6.2 already past 6k. Fixed valvtrain has it's limits!

The new Gen 3 5.0 with DI/PI and DOHC / VVT makes more total power than either the LS 6.2 or the Gen 2 5.0. Downside is that the 2018 GT's are now tipping the scales near 3900 lbs due to other added goodies (10A, magnaride etc.), so I wouldn't expect the 2018 10A GT to be faster than the up and coming 2019 10A SS refresh, I think they will be splitting hairs on the 1/4. 2018 GT makes more power, but it also has more weight, both utilize the same overall transmission architecture but with different gearing ratios to suite their respective engines power bands. So unless GM's auto gearing in their version of the 10A is more effective at using the LS's power band, it's going to be a tie unlike with the 6M's where the TR6060 has better suited gearing to the LS than the MT-82 does to the 5.0 (too darn short, needs taller lower gears, with closer ratio spacing).

Apparently I'm the only one who took the time to integrate the power curves of SAE dynoed 6M's for the SS and GT (have not done the new Gen 3 5.0 yet). Using the simple but effective Riemann Sum method, I integrated the two power curves and to my surprise the LS 6.2 and the Gen 2 5.0 make literally almost identical total power. Most people think the LS 6.2 is a more powerful engine because it's peak power is 455 HP / 455 TQ where the Gen 2 5.0's peak power is only 435 HP / 400 TQ. But the Gen 2 5.0 also can make power for another 500 RPM longer, allowing you to stay in the lower gear longer = better acceleration during that time vs. the LS that must run in the next taller gear and at a lower RPM. So they even out (assuming the gearing were optimized for each engine). What matters most is total power over the rev range and using gearing that makes the most of it, not peak power and not peak torque.

However the MT-82's gearing isn't as optimal for performance applications as the TR6060's.

Regarding weight, it's not the chassis that's the issue. Base GT weighs 3705 lbs (same for 2018's, the Gen 3 coyote didn't gain an oz of weight over the Gen 2). Base SS weighs 3685 lbs. That's 0.6% difference.....aka 20 lbs. PP GT's however gain a lot more weight than the SS does. GM again did a better job at minimizing weight gain when optioning the performance oriented models. But it also generally runs a higher price. Pay more = get more out of the box. Just an example, PP GT wheels are 38 lbs heavier (total for all 4) over base GT wheels. GM used lightweight forged wheels on their performance models to keep weight gain to a minimum, just an example of one area they did a better job (but again, at a higher price point).
 
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Coyote Red

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Good perspective Lion, I have the base GT w/3.55:1 gear and with the pony lowered on progressive springs it's a beast in chicanes also thanks to BMR & Steeda!
IMG_20180325_115336_041.jpg
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