2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

millhouse said:

Man, you’re trying so hard to win. I don’t care what you want to call it…discount, rebate, a steaming pile of shit. If I have the ability to walk into a dealer and get $8k-$10k off of a vehicle…the price is inherently lower. Don’t credit me for this, I got this pricing information from actual camaro owners.

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Trying to win what exactly. You said they were discounts and they aren't. They are rebates. They are 2 completely different things. You tried to word it as if the Camaros don't sell unless they are discounted. And you are completely wrong because I have yet to see even one discount. There are rebates. And again, every vehicle manufacturer, even Ford, offers REBATES. And no, there is nobody getting rebates that steep. Maybe you should check your information before you go around quoting it.

millhouse said:

And yet, $49,900 is not $50k. If you want to go down that road, we can revisit the GT350R’s 0.4 second track deficit against the ZL1.

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It sure as hell ain't "$45K" that you claim you saw either. I don't care about the 0.39 seconds that the GT350R lost by. That's YOUR hangup. You been hung up on that for months. If it didn't bother you or if you were as convinced that it wasn't that big of a loss as you say, then you would have moved on long time ago. When was that anyway, like back in May? Almost a year and you're the only one still harping on it. Move on already.

millhouse said:

As for the $45k car, it’s gone. It was obviously a deal (had 15k miles), as it’s no longer listed.

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Of course it's gone. It was probably a base model M6 trans with no add-ons and high mileage. But since you're the only one who saw it I guess we'll just have to assume that it was a fully optioned fully loaded ZL1 with the A10 trans, 1 owner, and 250 miles that just couldn't sell so they lowered the price substantially...like you want us to believe.

millhouse said:

No one is saying they aren’t selling, but the pricing is certainly indicative of them not holding their prices.

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And your example was an 8,000 mile no-option M6 trans 17 ZL1 listed at $49,900 in the time of year that these cars don't typically sell that well. Sure.

millhouse said:

The same Z06 that Mototrend had to retest because the rear end was out of alignment? The same Z06 that starts to overheat after 1 lap?

Man, I love it when chevy guys claim wins on figure 8’s and skidpads. So foolish, yet so entertaining. Again, thanks for the laugh.

Oh, and 1.31 seconds is by no means "slightly" faster. And considering the Z06 overheats after 1 lap, that margin would grow tremendously.

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Both of these cars overheat. Last I checked Ford had a lawsuit filed against them for the overheating limp mode issues with the Shelby. GM addressed their issues with revisions to the tune and revised the 17 and up Z06s from what I read. What has Ford done? I'm literally asking because I haven't kept up with it. Either way, they both had those issues and the Z06 issues were resolved.

millhouse said:

And even if that holds true, the GT will continue to appreciate while the ZR1 value will drop like a rock. That’s the funny thing about real supercars…a great deal of them hold their value (or increase in value).

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That remains to be seen. The Ford GT costs almost half a million dollars. At that price it better retain the value. The ZR1 will drop in value but that is more due to it being more of a streetable car. People will drive a $120,000 car and put miles on it. Not so with a $400K+ vehicle. The Ford GT will sit and get driven maybe once or twice a year. So it of course will retain the lion share of it's value. And that is if it even loses any value at all.

ALUSA said:

I do agree that the ZR1 will most likely beat a Ford GT in almost every performance aspect, however, Ford GT is a special limited production and collector's car. I heard Ford will bump the production from 500 to 1000 cars. Even then, it will be a very limited and even though the price is so high people will still buy it. Purchasing a Ford GT has nothing to do with how much performance you are getting for the money. It is more like, I am super rich and in love with this car, so I don't give a damn. It is a collector's car indeed.

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And most will sit and look pretty. The recent test car that was just done said tested car was $525,000:eyebulge: So it looks like prices went up as they were suppose to be around $450,000.

02gtnh said:

And most will sit and look pretty. The recent test car that was just done said tested car was $525,000:eyebulge: So it looks like prices went up as they were suppose to be around $450,000.

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It is crazy money for sure. Imagine if you have rattle and try to fix it in a car like that. I wouldn't even bother. I wouldn't even let the service touch it even though it is under warranty.

4V Mayhem said:

Trying to win what exactly. You said they were discounts and they aren't. They are rebates. They are 2 completely different things. You tried to word it as if the Camaros don't sell unless they are discounted. And you are completely wrong because I have yet to see even one discount. There are rebates. And again, every vehicle manufacturer, even Ford, offers REBATES. And no, there is nobody getting rebates that steep. Maybe you should check your information before you go around quoting it.

Per dictionary.com

Rebate
verb (used with object), rebated, rebating.
2.
to allow as a discount.

Suck it up, your argument is garbage.

4V Mayhem said:

It sure as hell ain't "$45K" that you claim you saw either. I don't care about the 0.39 seconds that the GT350R lost by. That's YOUR hangup. You been hung up on that for months. If it didn't bother you or if you were as convinced that it wasn't that big of a loss as you say, then you would have moved on long time ago. When was that anyway, like back in May? Almost a year and you're the only one still harping on it. Move on already .

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Quick question, is $49,900 greater than or less than $50,000? That’s what I thought.

As for the $45k, it was gone 5 minutes after I went back to link it. Good deals go fast.

4V Mayhem said:

Of course it's gone. It was probably a base model M6 trans with no add-ons and high mileage. But since you're the only one who saw it I guess we'll just have to assume that it was a fully optioned fully loaded ZL1 with the A10 trans, 1 owner, and 250 miles that just couldn't sell so they lowered the price substantially...like you want us to believe.

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I wouldn’t consider 15k miles high…hence the reason I used the term “low mileage”

As for the options, I didn’t look…and it doesn’t matter. It was $45k for a 15k mile used ZL1.

And no one in their right mind would associate “low miles” with 250….that’s damn near a new car.

4V Mayhem said:

And your example was an 8,000 mile no-option M6 trans 17 ZL1 listed at $49,900 in the time of year that these cars don't typically sell that well. Sure.

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And now you’re bringing up the “well, it’s the time of year” excuse. The price is what it is, get over it.

4V Mayhem said:

Both of these cars overheat. Last I checked Ford had a lawsuit filed against them for the overheating limp mode issues with the Shelby. GM addressed their issues with revisions to the tune and revised the 17 and up Z06s from what I read. What has Ford done? I'm literally asking because I haven't kept up with it. Either way, they both had those issues and the Z06 issues were resolved.

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We’re talking about the Ford GT here, not the GT350.

4V Mayhem said:

That remains to be seen. The Ford GT costs almost half a million dollars. At that price it better retain the value. The ZR1 will drop in value but that is more due to it being more of a streetable car. People will drive a $120,000 car and put miles on it. Not so with a $400K+ vehicle. The Ford GT will sit and get driven maybe once or twice a year. So it of course will retain the lion share of it's value. And that is if it even loses any value at all.

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In order to even purchase a GT, you need to show that you intend to drive the car. Anyone Ford believes will be buying these for collector purposes only were rejected. On top of that, you have to agree that you won’t sell the car for a set time.

Ultimately, the ZR1 is just another corvette. Yes, it’s their premium option…but in the end it’s by no means a supercar. It shares the same body and chassis as the regular corvette.

millhouse said:

In order to even purchase a GT, you need to show that you intend to drive the car. Anyone Ford believes will be buying these for collector purposes only were rejected. On top of that, you have to agree that you won’t sell the car for a set time.

Ultimately, the ZR1 is just another corvette. Yes, it’s their premium option…but in the end it is a supercar. It shares the same body and chassis as the regular corvette.

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Fixed.

ZL1 also dominated the GT around the track as well (C6G). GT stands no chance vs a cheaper and better ZR1.

I would be very surprised if the 'vette is quicker around a track than the GT. Mid engine, lots of grip, active aero, carbon tub. The only way I see any version of the 'vette getting around a track faster is if the GT driver isn't trying.

And I expect the mid-engine 'vette will be quicker than the current Corvettes, but still not as quick as the GT. Unless they steal Ford's ideas and incorporate the hydraulic lowering and similar aero. I also doubt the mid-engine 'vette will be even close to the weight of the GT.

Wait so now winning by 1.3 seconds isn't that much on a track?

Camaro6 guys really are intellectually bankrupt and have no sense of ethics it seems as they keep changing the definitions to suit their ends.

4V Mayhem said:

Both of these cars overheat. Last I checked Ford had a lawsuit filed against them for the overheating limp mode issues with the Shelby. GM addressed their issues with revisions to the tune and revised the 17 and up Z06s from what I read. What has Ford done? I'm literally asking because I haven't kept up with it. Either way, they both had those issues and the Z06 issues were resolved.

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That was only for the base model comfort pack cars (I.E. ones that shouldn't have been at the track in stock form, anyway), all the other configurations of the car had the necessary coolers. Ford didn't necessarily "Fix the problem", they just removed that package for 2016 because not many people were buying them in that configuration. And legal experts say it's a dead-in-water case. Ford made it abundantly clear that the track package was required to track the car. The owners trying to get the lawsuit rolling are just pissed because, just like the whole ZL1 vs 1LE debate, they are too damn stupid to know which variation of the car suits their needs.

thehunterooo said:

Fixed.

ZL1 also dominated the GT around the track as well (C6G). GT stands no chance vs a cheaper and better ZR1.

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LMAOOOOOO YOU'RE JOKING, RIGHT?? :lol::lol:

No, the 1LE did not "dominate" the GT around a track, it (max-effort, I might add) barely kept up with some GT owner on a sunday cruise on a track. How can you look at a same driver same conditions time difference of almost 3 seconds and think that the ZL1 is anywhere near the caliber of the GT? :headbonk:

jake_zx2 said:

LMAOOOOOO YOU'RE JOKING, RIGHT?? :lol::lol:

No, the 1LE did not "dominate" the GT around a track, it (max-effort, I might add) barely kept up with some GT owner on a sunday cruise on a track. How can you look at a same driver same conditions time difference of almost 3 seconds and think that the ZL1 is anywhere near the caliber of the GT? :headbonk:

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You need to understand that everything he says like this is a parody of Camaro6.

Ahhhh, okay... wasn't sure if he was from camaro6 or not... you know, they're that special breed of stupid that you really can't tell whether they're serious or joking

1320' said:

You need to understand that everything he says like this is a parody of Camaro6.

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Yep, throws me off sometimes lol

jake_zx2 said:

I don't think you quite understand how lap times work..... The thing with the ZR1 is that there aren't really that many significant differences... it has some more power, but also has some more weight. It has some additional aero, but nothing really groundbreaking

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ZR1 has 300 more horsepower than a Corvette Grand Sport and 100 more than the Z06. It has 70% more downforce (ZTK) than the Z06. And it has the same weight as the Z06. Pretty much all you said is wrong.


As to me understanding how "lap times work". I race on road circuits and instruct on track days specifically to help people on different cars improve their lap times with data. I think I understand a little bit how "lap times work".

And the ZR1/ZTK will be faster than the Ford GT in most tracks if not all.

jake_zx2 said:

However, the people spending half a million bucks on a car don't only care about performance. They want it to be elegant, they want it to be engaging, and they want it to be premium. The Ford GT checks all those boxes. The ZR1? Not quite. doesn't make it any less of a performance car, simply makes sense of why the Ford GT costs so much more

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No disagreement there. But I thought we are on a thread about "Track Times Compared", not an "elegance" thread.

You may find it hard to believe, but a number of people (increasing every year) buy sports cars intending to take them to the track regularly (road course), since that is the ONLY way the performance of these cars can safely and legally be explored.

Who cares what the performance and handling of a GT, GT350, PP2 or whatever is if you are not going to track it. It is like having a gorgeous girlfriend and never having sex with her. Looks ridiculous.

mvfjet said:

It's funny a 1.6 second zo6 deficit and 2.7 second zl1 deficit is nothing when comparing to a Ford GT for the Chevy guys. In reality these are huge gaps on VIR. There's areas where the driver hit 160+ MPH. At that speed if my math is correct

You're travelling at 14097 FPM. So 1.6 seconds would be 376 foot gap.

The ZL1 would be 634 feet behind.

It sounds close on paper but when you crunch the #'s that's pretty far behind.

As for ZL1 prices, I have a dealer right now who will take GM Supplier discount of $2500, $1000 cash buyer rebate, $2000 Mustang owner conquest and $1000 private offer on two brand new no option 6 speed white or black ZL1's. It'd be just under $64k OTD for me. Even then what probably keeps me from even thinking of buying it is the valve coking on all GM direct injected V8's.

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The Z06 was faster then the GT at VIR by 1.68 sec and the zl1 1le was 2.7 sec slower according to fast laps. Also, the zl1 would of been 367' behind, not 634'.:cheers: