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Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

jake_zx2

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If you've raced cars around a track, you'd see how valuable HUD can really be. Sure it is only a split second. But that split second does one thing. It makes it that much easier.QUOTE]

Can't say I agree with this one here... I find myself RARELY needing to look at anything in my gauge cluster when on track, and I feel the flashing in my digital cluster probably helps remind me when to shift than watching RPMs on an HUD would
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bootlegger

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If you've raced cars around a track, you'd see how valuable HUD can really be. Sure it is only a split second. But that split second does one thing. It makes it that much easier.QUOTE]

Can't say I agree with this one here... I find myself RARELY needing to look at anything in my gauge cluster when on track, and I feel the flashing in my digital cluster probably helps remind me when to shift than watching RPMs on an HUD would
The only racing I have ever done that required constant checking of the gauges, is drag racing. In that case, a shift light would be enough HUD. In AutoX, you may shift once or twice, at the most. On a road course, I can feel and hear where I need to shift well enough. If you don't perfectly hit redline, it rarely makes a difference (unless you are a professional driver trying to beat a time by a fraction of a second).

Now in the real world, HUD would be great if it warned me of cars beside me or coming up behind.
 

4V Mayhem

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Christ oh mighty. Are the Camaro guys still trying to say the Interior of the Camaro isn’t terrible? The interior is the main reason that car isn’t selling well. You spend 100% of the time. your driving inside the car. And You shouldn’t have to get used to poor visibility. I got rid of my 11 SS. Because I hated being inside it that much! The “I adjust my mirrors and I’m fine with it”, talk. Is just silly talk. You guys are arguing about how important HUD is? But can’t admit. Seeing out of the car is more important! F#$k HUD. Give me a car, I can change lanes with confidence. That’s whats important. I’ve owned just about every generation Camaro there is. And the 5th/6th gen is the only one. I couldn’t live with. I’m not a Camaro hater like some on here. And I also get some people really love Camaros. But damn the interior sucking ass shouldn’t be defended. It needs to be changed before the Camaro goes the way of the dinosaurs. Again. GM gave the Camaro5 folks exactly what they asked for. Look how that worked out. They better start listening to the buying public. And the magazine reviews that praise the performance of the car. But almost universally trash the interior and sight lines.
The debate is exactly how much visibility you need vs how much the Camaro actually gives you. And so far not one person has said that the Camaro doesn't give you enough or that it isn't sufficient. All I keep reading is that it is horrible and that is only in comparison to how much the other cars give you. In and of itself tho, compared to how much you need to see, the car would not be allowed on the road if it did not give you a specific amount of visibility. How much that is I can't answer. But again, whether you or anyone else wanna pretend that Camaro owners out there are suffering and just won't admit it, to me it sounds like that is just what you want to think. Several people on here have said time and again that they are ok with the visibility. And I don't see people trading the car in because of the visibility. Maybe it actually is something that isn't bad once you get used to it. I have driven many of the 6th Gen Camaros. I got in the car, noted the visibility, drove off, and never thought about it again after that. And each time I drive on it doesn't bother me at all. So maybe it could be that it is too much for YOU in particular. But there are also some people who complain that these cars including the Mustang are very uncomfortable for DD use. So are all of us in denial? Should they be thinking that we're all just pretending to enjoy our cars and we're literally suffering in them but don't want to admit it?
Can't say I agree with this one here... I find myself RARELY needing to look at anything in my gauge cluster when on track, and I feel the flashing in my digital cluster probably helps remind me when to shift than watching RPMs on an HUD would
I use my gauges often and it would be nice if they were easier to access while racing.
 

millhouse

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And again, it has the worst visibility in comparison to other vehicles. Looking at exactly how much you need to see to operate the vehicle safely and effectively, then the visibility is not an issue. If you needed $99 to buy something and 5 people gave you 120 bucks while 1 person gave you 105 bucks, well how much did you need? One person gave much less but it was still more than you actually needed. THAT is my point. Arguing that it has the worst visibility when it still offers more than you need is a pointless argument.
You're still not getting it. People don't like feeling like they are sitting in a coffin, regardless of weather it's a minivan or an economy car. This isn't about what you need, it's about not having something that the other cars in the class have. Put it this way, no one desires terrible visibility...they put up with it....and those that don't are lost sales.

Take your car racing. That little split second that you're diverting more of your attention and mental energy is just enough to send you into a wall. The info is right on the screen and allows you to see it without taking your eyes off the road at all.
Said no one that has actually driven at a track ever...seriously. Anyone that get's sent into a wall due to checking their gauges needs there license revoked, as they are going to kill someone on public roads.

You know many people who wanted to buy a Camaro and didn't because they couldn't fit their golf clubs in the trunk? Wow! Just messing with you. But seriously, the vast majority of people don't even consider trunk space when buying these cars. If you were buying one of these as your only vehicle then yea I could see it being an issue. But most people have this as a second car. Or have it as a primary car but have a second car. So golf clubs or anything else not fitting in the trunk isn't an issue that would make or break...
Think about whose buying these cars for a second, it's not teens and millennial's, it's higher earning blue collard workers and working professionals. Believe it or not, a LOT of us actually like to drive our performance cars....to the golf course (gasp). Really though, I can't believe you haven't heardthis before, it's been a hot topic among car enthusiasts. Hell, the corvette has far more room for clubs than the camaro does.

Going back to your argument about visibility and using it here in reference to trunk space, lol. The Challenger has much more storage space than either of these cars. One could say that the Camaro and Mustang has the worst storage space in their class. But for the majority of people out there, it is enough space. Get my point? You can't argue the benefits of excess in one case and then play it off elsewhere. If visibility and space is that much of a deal, then the Mustang offers much less than the Challenger does. So why aren't people just buying the car that offers the most of everything? Don't answer that...
The difference is, the Mustang has enough visibility and trunk space to not create an issue. Every single reviewer comments on how poor the visibility is, not because it's worst in class...but because it's noticeable and detracts from the vehicle. Every single reviewer comments on how small the trunk opening is again, because it's noticeable and detracts from the vehicle. People don't flock towards the mustang because of it's good viability and trunk space, but they do flock away from the camaro for poor visibility and trunk space. Why this is still an argument is beyond me, this is already known.
 

jake_zx2

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I'm just saying that the visibility issue is in comparison to other vehicles and not in comparison to how much you actually need to see. I've mentioned that before on here. It has way less visibility. But it obviously passed enough testing that it was allowed to be produced and is deemed safe enough to operate on the roads. That to me says that it is a perceived issue and not an actual issue.
Why does the Mustang need 460 hp? It would be just fine with 25hp. I mean, it's still more than some vehicles have, and its more than enough to be operated safely on the roads. I think the need for horsepower is a perceived issue and not an actual issue.

See now how this is a moot point?
 

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jake_zx2

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Think about whose buying these cars for a second, it's not teens and millennial's, it's higher earning blue collard workers and working professionals. Believe it or not, a LOT of us actually like to drive our performance cars....to the golf course (gasp). Really though, I can't believe you haven't heardthis before, it's been a hot topic among car enthusiasts. Hell, the corvette has far more room for clubs than the camaro does.
To this point, I've been dailying my mustang lately, as my DD hasn't shipped here to Texas yet. The other day, I had to go pick up a 3 ton jack, jack stands, a couple sawhorses, a vacuum, a shop vac, a circular saw, and some sheetwood for a few projects around the house. I was able to fit all of that in the trunk of my mustang without even needing to put down the seats. I don't think the sawhorses would have even fit in the Camaro's trunk opening
 

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The camaro has the worst visibility in it's class...by a far margin. There is no sugar coating it. I would prefer to have my work-space in a corner office with windows, not in a coffin. They both have the same amount of egress options. This isn't about safety, it's about how the interior makes you feel. Many people sit in it and don't even take it for a test drive as it's far too claustrophobic.
I think you and I agree on this from a philosophical standpoint. I would NOT buy a car that made me feel claustrophobic. And I didn't. Now, the same car might make YOU feel claustrophobic and you therefore should not and apparently did not buy it. But neither one of us should feel that our situations are universal.
I'd venture to say you're in a bit of a minority in that regard. I know many who have passed on the camaro because they can't fit their clubs in the trunk without folding the seats down and taking out their drivers. How are you with HUD VS blutooth? HUD against heated seats and steering wheel (I lived in Michigan, so don't lie lol). HUD against auto climate control? I'm curious if you'd take the HUD over Fords new digital dash too?
I golf often. Not well, but often. I have a Camaro convertible with even less trunk room and the same small opening as compared to the coupe. I consider it an obstacle that is easily overcome and therefore not a deal-breaker. I switched to a bag that is more trim than the bag that I had been using for years (and was well past worn out) and I have no issue with taking my driver out to fit it in the trunk when the top is up. Fact of the matter is, most of the time I go golfing, the top is down and I just drop the bag(s) into the backseat. Drivers still in the bag.

I don't really think HUD vs B'tooth is an issue since every vehicle I've had over the past 8 - 10 years has had B'tooth. Hard to measure a choice I don't have to make. I can say that I don't always use B'tooth. I often connect my phone via CarPlay, which bypasses B'tooth.

I would take HUD over heated steering wheel. Now that you mention it, I 'm sure that was in our test panel, because we were also testing heated steering wheel in the same clinic. I don't remember how they ranked comparatively, but I do recall that was also one of the favorite techs from that clinic. I very well may have been in the minority then because...gloves.

HUD vs Auto Climate Control....not even a contest. HUD. My other "daily driver" is a 2016 Cruze with basic HVAC. I don't miss the fact that it doesn't have the sophisticated Auto / Dual Passenger HVAC setup in the Camaro. I do find myself looking for the HUD in that car as well as my wife's Volt and then thinking "oh yeah...wrong car".

HUD vs Mustang dash. Again, no contest. HUD. The Mustang dash is nicer than my Camaro dash, yet I don't even take full advantage of the features in my current Camaro dash. Having more would be just that. More. More that I would not take full advantage of. HUD I use every trip. Every. Single. Trip.
 

millhouse

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To this point, I've been dailying my mustang lately, as my DD hasn't shipped here to Texas yet. The other day, I had to go pick up a 3 ton jack, jack stands, a couple sawhorses, a vacuum, a shop vac, a circular saw, and some sheetwood for a few projects around the house. I was able to fit all of that in the trunk of my mustang without even needing to put down the seats. I don't think the sawhorses would have even fit in the Camaro's trunk opening
My wife is amazed when we visit Costco and I tell her we have room for the TP, the Paper towels and the hundreds of other items. We could take the minivan, but why? :thumbsup:
 

4V Mayhem

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I think you and I agree on this from a philosophical standpoint. I would NOT buy a car that made me feel claustrophobic. And I didn't. Now, the same car might make YOU feel claustrophobic and you therefore should not and apparently did not buy it. But neither one of us should feel that our situations are universal.
Thank you. This is exactly what I'm trying to explain to him. That to him it is terrible. But to others it is perfectly fine. Just like clothes, shoes, and nearly everything else can be comfortable to one person but uncomfortable to someone else. I personally hate wearing ties. I feel like they're choking me. Even when sized properly. How would I look going up to someone and saying that they're uncomfortable and I and everyone else knows it and they're just acting like they aren't and they're being choked to death and they're in denial? LOL!!
 

millhouse

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I think you and I agree on this from a philosophical standpoint. I would NOT buy a car that made me feel claustrophobic. And I didn't. Now, the same car might make YOU feel claustrophobic and you therefore should not and apparently did not buy it. But neither one of us should feel that our situations are universal.
100% with ya.


I golf often. Not well, but often. I have a Camaro convertible with even less trunk room and the same small opening as compared to the coupe. I consider it an obstacle that is easily overcome and therefore not a deal-breaker. I switched to a bag that is more trim than the bag that I had been using for years (and was well past worn out) and I have no issue with taking my driver out to fit it in the trunk when the top is up. Fact of the matter is, most of the time I go golfing, the top is down and I just drop the bag(s) into the backseat. Drivers still in the bag.
I've owned 2 vert mustangs, top down was always the way to go to the course. I use a walking bag, so I'm right there with ya. Still, you never have ran into an issue where you were unable to put the top down due to items in the trunk?

I personally won't buy another vert, too expensive to maintain and I'm always freaked out about people slicing through the top (not that it's ever happened). Plus it's too damn hot down here in the summer.

I don't really think HUD vs B'tooth is an issue since every vehicle I've had over the past 8 - 10 years has had B'tooth. Hard to measure a choice I don't have to make. I can say that I don't always use B'tooth. I often connect my phone via CarPlay, which bypasses B'tooth.
Just trying to make a comparison to the value compared to options that are likely much cheaper.

I would take HUD over heated steering wheel. Now that you mention it, I 'm sure that was in our test panel, because we were also testing heated steering wheel in the same clinic. I don't remember how they ranked comparatively, but I do recall that was also one of the favorite techs from that clinic. I very well may have been in the minority then because...gloves.
You're nuts. There is nothing like remote starting your car, scraping the snow and ice off the windshield and grabbing an icicle wheel. I don't need one now, but damn if I wish I had one when I lived in Michigan.

HUD vs Auto Climate Control....not even a contest. HUD. My other "daily driver" is a 2016 Cruze with basic HVAC. I don't miss the fact that it doesn't have the sophisticated Auto / Dual Passenger HVAC setup in the Camaro. I do find myself looking for the HUD in that car as well as my wife's Volt and then thinking "oh yeah...wrong car".
Haha, i knew you would go there. Couldn't disagree more though. Sounds like you have developed quite the reliance on having the HUD in your field of view.

HUD vs Mustang dash. Again, no contest. HUD. The Mustang dash is nicer than my Camaro dash, yet I don't even take full advantage of the features in my current Camaro dash. Having more would be just that. More. More that I would not take full advantage of. HUD I use every trip. Every. Single. Trip.
Sounds like they have you hooked on the HUD crack pipe. I personally don't get it, but to each their own. Until it starts displaying information I can't get elsewhere...I personally have no need for it. :cheers:
 

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jake_zx2

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My wife is amazed when we visit Costco and I tell her we have room for the TP, the Paper towels and the hundreds of other items. We could take the minivan, but why? :thumbsup:
My girlfriend has a newer Focus Hatchback, and I often find that I can fit A LOT more in my trunk than her's
 

4V Mayhem

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You're still not getting it. People don't like feeling like they are sitting in a coffin, regardless of weather it's a minivan or an economy car. This isn't about what you need, it's about not having something that the other cars in the class have. Put it this way, no one desires terrible visibility...they put up with it....and those that don't are lost sales.



Said no one that has actually driven at a track ever...seriously. Anyone that get's sent into a wall due to checking their gauges needs there license revoked, as they are going to kill someone on public roads.



Think about whose buying these cars for a second, it's not teens and millennial's, it's higher earning blue collard workers and working professionals. Believe it or not, a LOT of us actually like to drive our performance cars....to the golf course (gasp). Really though, I can't believe you haven't heardthis before, it's been a hot topic among car enthusiasts. Hell, the corvette has far more room for clubs than the camaro does.



The difference is, the Mustang has enough visibility and trunk space to not create an issue. Every single reviewer comments on how poor the visibility is, not because it's worst in class...but because it's noticeable and detracts from the vehicle. Every single reviewer comments on how small the trunk opening is again, because it's noticeable and detracts from the vehicle. People don't flock towards the mustang because of it's good viability and trunk space, but they do flock away from the camaro for poor visibility and trunk space. Why this is still an argument is beyond me, this is already known.
And yet again, all of this is how YOU feel about it. I got in the 6th Gen Camaro and before it was in drive I wasn't even thinking about the visibility. Maybe you're just more sensitive to it and that's fine. But for you to say that everyone feels the way you do when it is clear that many people out there are buying these cars and are in love with them just means that you're the one in denial.

Why does the Mustang need 460 hp? It would be just fine with 25hp. I mean, it's still more than some vehicles have, and its more than enough to be operated safely on the roads. I think the need for horsepower is a perceived issue and not an actual issue.

See now how this is a moot point?
I really have no idea what point you're trying to make here...
 

jake_zx2

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Sounds like they have you hooked on the HUD crack pipe. I personally don't get it, but to each their own. Until it starts displaying information I can't get elsewhere...I personally have no need for it. :cheers:
Couldn't agree more. I love my digital cluster, and 10/10 time would prefer an abundance of information to reiteration of the same information. I don't need to see my speed in 2 different locations, but I love being able to see my lap times on the fly
 

jake_zx2

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I really have no idea what point you're trying to make here...
The point that just because a car doesn't NEED something to be "considered a car", it still may need it to be competitive in it's respectable market. Sure, you don't NEED more than 10 square feet of visibility to be able to drive a car, but when the competition has significantly more, you kind of DO need it
 

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Couldn't agree more. I love my digital cluster, and 10/10 time would prefer an abundance of information to reiteration of the same information. I don't need to see my speed in 2 different locations, but I love being able to see my lap times on the fly
:thumbsup:

I do see a time coming though when a HUD may be the only display option available.

The point that just because a car doesn't NEED something to be "considered a car", it still may need it to be competitive in it's respectable market. Sure, you don't NEED more than 10 square feet of visibility to be able to drive a car, but when the competition has significantly more, you kind of DO need it
Especially when every publication lists it as a fault, or a reason not to buy
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