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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

Baron95

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We are talking about engineers and researchers who knows what they are doing!
It is not a matter of the competence of the engineers. It is a matter of the resources that they were given. The official "story behind the PP2" is that it was a skunkworks project - some engineers working on their spare time due to passion.

If this is remotely true, it suggests to me a shoestring budget, with no ability to change or model the cooling for engine, transmission, diff. So they left it at that.

My guess is that the Mustang engineers were so horrified about how bad the PP1 was doing vs the Camaro, that they kicked of a shoestring-funded project to try to do better.

So, the answer to your questions - "Why did they leave out the coolers" - may simply be that they didn't have the money or resources to do better.
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w3rkn

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The standard performance package (PP1) and PP2 are completely different animals.

The PP1 is a worthy improvement for street, spirited driving, autocross, etc, with nearly zero downside.

The PP2 on the other hand has a lot of downsides. The Cup 2 tires are horrible in rain, even dangerous. They are not good in cold temperatures. And they offer zero benefit until they are warmed up after a full lap or so on track. It is not good for autocross, as it won't get up to temp before the autocross run is over.

Similarly the low spoiler and reduced ride height will cause it to scrape everywhere.

In other words, the PP2 comes with a lot of downsides, and is ONLY a benefit if you track the car. Therefore most owners that spec it will track it.



The helmet comments are ridiculous, since that is a personal wear item, and is not attached to the vehicle, and adding one to your head does not void the warranty, or give Ford an excuse to deny warranty coverage.


It is is so ridiculous to see people defending leaving coolers out of the PP2, when all the competitors (BMW M2, 1LE, etc have them).

I am going to say that MOST people who buy the PP2 & who will track their car, will have a SEPERATE set of wheels/tires for tracking...! (ie: The very first thing I am going to do, is put new tires on my Mustang and save the Cup 2s for the track!)

:thumbsup:

Track tires only last one season, & People who track their cars buy new tires all the time. Your points are remedial, as again most trackers have 2 sets of wheels & tires. You are talking about more than 30 minute sessions, aren't you..?

Subsequently, the PP2 is not about the tires, it about the package. $810 more for recaros, wheels and aero stuff. (Tires wear out, or can be swapped out for different characteristics)


Again, Ford should be overly concerned for people with PP2 and include a voucher for a helmet, because those people MIGHT TRACK their car..? The same fear you have with an oil cooler..? (That Ford might not be supplying one for you?)

I am saying it would be nice if it was included, but not necessary, because I will add one if not. So should you..! As any Racer would.



But I also have not heard of it being an issue yet, or what Ford's response is. I suspect they will offer "book" option, and if not? Other aftermarket will be right there. But, the new engine comes with a composite oilpan. And IS a different engine from last year.

So.. I think complaining about an issue that nobody is experiencing right now, seems a bit of a whine. Not an actual discussion.
 
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ALUSA

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It is not a matter of the competence of the engineers. It is a matter of the resources that they were given. The official "story behind the PP2" is that it was a skunkworks project - some engineers working on their spare time due to passion.

If this is remotely true, it suggests to me a shoestring budget, with no ability to change or model the cooling for engine, transmission, diff. So they left it at that.

My guess is that the Mustang engineers were so horrified about how bad the PP1 was doing vs the Camaro, that they kicked of a shoestring-funded project to try to do better.

So, the answer to your questions - "Why did they leave out the coolers" - may simply be that they didn't have the money or resources to do better.
Yes i listed that as a reason too, but they can’t market this car as a track car thats for sure! They can’t justify bringing a cheaper car to take the crown from a gt350! Not at least for this generation.

So now the potential pp2 buyers need to make a decision. Option 1 go with a base gt and do your own modifications to make it a track car, Option 2 go with pp1 and do modifications to make it a track car, Option 3 go with pp2 and still do modifications to make it a track car, Option 4 spend more money and go with gt350 and call it the day, and finally Option 5 betray your brand and get a 1le and call it the day! Besides Option 5, Ford is still banking money and people are still happy with their purchases.
 

JohnnyUtah

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I am going to say that MOST people who buy the PP2 & who will track their car, will have a SEPERATE set of wheels/tires for tracking...! (ie: The very first thing I am going to do, is put new tires on my Mustang and save the Cup 2s for the track!)

:thumbsup:

Track tires only last one season, & People who track their cars buy new tires all the time. Your points are remedial, as again most trackers have 2 sets of wheels & tires. You are talking about more than 30 minute sessions, aren't you..?

Subsequently, the PP2 is not about the tires, it about the package. $810 more for recaros, wheels and aero stuff. (Tires wear out, or can be swapped out for different characteristics)


Again, Ford should be overly concerned for people with PP2 and include a voucher for a helmet, because those people MIGHT TRACK their car..? The same fear you have with an oil cooler..? (That Ford might not be supplying one for you?)

I am saying it would be nice if it was included, but not necessary, because I will add one if not. So should you..! As any Racer would.



But I also have not heard of it being an issue yet, or what Ford's response is. I suspect they will offer "book" option, and if not? Other aftermarket will be right there. But, the new engine comes with a composite oilpan. And IS a different engine from last year.

So.. I think complaining about an issue that nobody is experiencing right now, seems a bit of a whine. Not an actual discussion.
A voucher for a helmet? Ha ha.

What's next? Maybe they can include a lawn chair for all that time sitting around the paddock waiting for the car to cool down.
 

Baron95

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A voucher for a helmet? Ha ha.

What's next? Maybe they can include a lawn chair for all that time sitting around the paddock waiting for the car to cool down.
ˆˆˆˆˆ
Best line in this whole discussion.
 

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Baron95

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Lets all hope that the PP2 will in fact not overheat and throw codes under most track conditions for a 20-30 min session and/or can be managed (e.g. shifting at 6,000 RPM) to stay within temps.

If that is the case, then the only thing I want to know to make it perfect is if the front wheels fit the back or the back wheels fit the front, so I can have a square setup with a spare in the trunk.

That would make it a near perfect track car.
 

saf1

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Just wondering - those who track their 2015 - 17 that have the performance pack 1 are they experiencing over heating? I frequent the Road Course, Track, Autocross, HPDE forum and only see it mentioned once or twice if that. So is it an issue because there appears to be people tracking the hell out of their cars.
 

w3rkn

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A voucher for a helmet? Ha ha.

What's next? Maybe they can include a lawn chair for all that time sitting around the paddock waiting for the car to cool down.
Riiight ..? :crazy:
Or, that statement was just as crazy as insinuating that the 5.0 overheats on track events and needs additional coolers. Then using the 5.2 FPC as bases of their/his fearmongering.

:lol:


Irony is... I suggested a voucher for a helmet, because more people would actually have need and use that, then would have actually overheated during an event. So my "factious fear" of no helmet, is more probable than his fearmongering that 5.0s are melting down, at the track.

Ask him...
 

Zeke.Malvo

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I remember tech package and base GT350 owners were going into limp mode from just canyon carving.
I remember a lot of people complaining that they did not want that to happen, but I don't recall anyone actually going into limp mode on the street. There may have been one or two tho.
 

Childs Play

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The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act dictates that the burden of proof lies solely on the dealer/manufacturer. It’s not a two way street, although being able to show that Ford recommends coolers for heavy duty use…and has OEM mustangs that come from the factory with coolers really makes this a no brainer.

This is one of the few instances of a no-coverage being a slam dunk case. You are adding something that Ford recommends, that’s on other Ford vehicles and adds longevity to OEM parts. And when you win, Ford is responsible for your lawyer fees.

Call up any dealer nationwide and they tell you the same….none are going to deny coverage for properly installed transmission coolers.

Honestly, I’m not sure where the idea that any modifications somehow instantly void your warranty came from….but it’s getting a bit out of control.
I personally like when someone claims a mod (such as a catch can,cam,headers,tune,etc) doesn't affect your warranty. Because then their car breaks and they bring it to the dealership. And.... If the modded part in question is claimed to be related to the failure? BAM! Denied warranty claim. Then they shout a whole bunch of dumb crap like "BUT TEH MAG MOSS ACT!" Claim they'll get a lawyer, get laughed at, and sent back with a car that's broke that they have to repair. And reality slaps them in the face.

But good luck with the radiator. Maybe that part will be different since it's a Ford part???

However, having friends who've had their warranty denied due to mods, I have a feeling you'll be the one paying your lawyer.
 

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w3rkn

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It doesn't take anything to call the BBB, and get the Service Manager on the right page of the law.

Your friends don't know how to apply the law, or their mods are related to their breakdowns/service.
 

millhouse

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I personally like when someone claims a mod (such as a catch can,cam,headers,tune,etc) doesn't affect your warranty. Because then their car breaks and they bring it to the dealership. And.... If the modded part in question is claimed to be related to the failure? BAM! Denied warranty claim. Then they shout a whole bunch of dumb crap like "BUT TEH MAG MOSS ACT!" Claim they'll get a lawyer, get laughed at, and sent back with a car that's broke that they have to repair. And reality slaps them in the face.

But good luck with the radiator. Maybe that part will be different since it's a Ford part???

However, having friends who've had their warranty denied due to mods, I have a feeling you'll be the one paying your lawyer.
There is a big difference between installing a catch can that requires regular maintenance and CAN damage an engine if not regularly emptied....and a transmission cooler that (when installed properly) will require no maintenance and will increase the transmission life. If you can't see that, I feel sorry for you.
 

Hack

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I remember a lot of people complaining that they did not want that to happen, but I don't recall anyone actually going into limp mode on the street. There may have been one or two tho.
I can vouch for that (tech/base will go into limp on the street).
 

68fbjjz109

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Just wondering - those who track their 2015 - 17 that have the performance pack 1 are they experiencing over heating? I frequent the Road Course, Track, Autocross, HPDE forum and only see it mentioned once or twice if that. So is it an issue because there appears to be people tracking the hell out of their cars.
I have taken my car to a few times Waterford Hills and Grattan. Never had an issue. The only thing close to cooling mods my car has is no hood insulation.

Never had a issue. Maybe I am just slow.
 

4V Mayhem

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Regarding warranties and what voids it and what doesn't void it and MM Act yada yada...do you really wanna take that chance? I mean, everyone says this and that when we're talking about it hypothetically. But if you actually did have a major mechanical failure, what would really happen? Could you really afford to bang it out with Ford in court? It isn't gonna be over and done with in a week or month. It could drag out for who knows how long. And these are people who deal with this kind of stuff all the time. How many times have any of us went toe-to-toe in court with a huge company like Ford? Plus all the time and money when you can buy a used GT engine for like $5K and call it a day. Seems like too much of a hassle if you ask me.

As far as coolers and whether Ford should have included them or not. Who knows? I'm sure there is some corporate reason involving regulations or restrictions etc that was the real reason they didn't include them. I doubt Ford was trying to skim off without giving people a fully ready and operable track car. Look at it like this, you have to change out some of the fluids before taking it to the track right? So why didn't they just give you the fluids needed already in the vehicle? Or throw a crate full of the race fluids in the trunk? I feel that it goes like this...if you want the car then buy it and enjoy it. If you want to race it then you have to add the necessary components and change out some of the fluids so it'll operate properly on the track. Do I like that it's that way? No. But is it a major issue? No. Most people are not going to take these cars to the track anyway. So why include coolers on ALL of them just for a FEW of them to ever even use it? That would be silly. Sell the car without the coolers, save some money, and let those who want to race deal with it.
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