Hub Centric Rings

sigintel · Nov 27, 2017

Pics not working.

Scurd Racing · Nov 27, 2017

Norm Peterson said:
Only seeing little squares with the white "X".

Very much interested in what happened, since I've had one plastic centering ring distort in such a manner that once removed could not be re-used because the wheel could not be made to go fully flush again.

Norm

Let me amend that. And yes, please get it checked and be safe out there. I was lucky that one of the lug nuts hold the wheels and I did not lose a wheel, sending me down a cliff.

z31maniac · Nov 27, 2017

I've never had luck just trying to slowly tighten down the lugs in order and getting the wheels 100% centered so they don't wobble.

Anti-seize and aluminum hub rings, done.

Norm Peterson · Nov 27, 2017

With the tire off the ground, snug the lug nuts up in the star pattern by hand first to get the wheels drawn in evenly. A 1/2" drive ratchet is all the leverage you'll need for this, and for front wheels you can hold the wheel against rotating with your other hand for this step. From there I torque the lug nuts down in 2 or 3 steps (still using the star pattern). The first step or two I'll block the wheel to prevent rotation and only do the final torque cycle with some of the car weight on the wheel.

Norm

z31maniac · Nov 27, 2017

Norm Peterson said:
With the tire off the ground, snug the lug nuts up in the star pattern by hand first to get the wheels drawn in evenly. A 1/2" drive ratchet is all the leverage you'll need for this, and for front wheels you can hold the wheel against rotating with your other hand for this step. From there I torque the lug nuts down in 2 or 3 steps (still using the star pattern). The first step or two I'll block the wheel to prevent rotation and only do the final torque cycle with some of the car weight on the wheel.

Norm

This sounds more time consuming and tedious then putting the wheel on, zipping the nuts down mildly tight with an electric, then finishing torque with a torque wrench. For what, to save $20 bucks on aluminum hub rings?

:cheers:

Scurd Racing · Nov 27, 2017

z31maniac said:
This sounds more time consuming and tedious then putting the wheel on, zipping the nuts down mildly tight with an electric, then finishing torque with a torque wrench. For what, to save $20 bucks on aluminum hub rings?

:cheers:

I have never ran the rings on my car, I'm not sure if i should and also because the incident I had, I'm very skeptical of them. The aluminium ones are fine, but the plastics are a no no for me.

z31maniac · Nov 27, 2017

It's personal preference really.

I find extended studs and hub rings make wheel changes and rotations, much quicker and easier, especially when you're hustling between sessions to check a noise, rotate tires front to back, etc.

As I mentioned, if you're worried about galvanic corrosion making the rings stick to the hubs, slap a little anti-seize on them.

Norm Peterson · Nov 27, 2017

z31maniac said:
This sounds more time consuming and tedious then putting the wheel on, zipping the nuts down mildly tight with an electric, then finishing torque with a torque wrench. For what, to save $20 bucks on aluminum hub rings?

:cheers:

Time consuming . . . I guess it does add a little time, I just don't put myself under time pressure for this, as I'll address in a little more detail later in the post.

It's still better than the alternative, where an uncalibrated "mildly tight" can still leave you with a centering error. Been there.

FWIW, I will run the lug nuts down to "first impact" with the cordless impact set on low speed/low power, which ends up being much less torque than the 25-ish ft*lbs I get with the ratchet-wrench snug. That's my only concession to "speed" here (especially with the ARP studs, which are pretty long if you're only using 1/8" spacers or none at all).

I have had a wheel separate from the car (probably a single OE stud failure followed by a zipper-style failure of the other 4 in quick succession, zero warning). Always torqued to spec, just not with as fussy a procedure, though there is some possibility of one overtorque situation out of my control having occurred. So I'm REALLY HESITANT about endorsing ANY shortcuts with wheel mounting.

I'll get the next round . . . :cheers:

Norm

ronemca · Nov 27, 2017

I agree with Norm.

And...I 'd like to AGAIN question the necessity for torqueing to 150 ft/lbs.

I know - I know - that spec is documented here & there. And it pops up in an Internet search too. Agreed. However, two tidbits of info compel me to say: "hmmm"

1) the torque spec for the center hub retaining nut is -- whaddya know? - 150 ft/lbs!

2) 150 ft/lbs is MIGHTY TIGHT for studs of this caliber!

I have no data to support this, so it should be regarded as what it is: an opinion. But I did try it once on the S550. I levered the studs down to 150 with an accurate torque wrench, and I found it to be suspiciously tight. Again - just watercooler chat here, but IMO this is getting close to Kenworth tight.

sigintel · Nov 27, 2017

The torque for grade 10.9 M14x1.5 studs to generate the designed clamping force is 148ft/lb.
This is not excessively tight for the grade and thread pitch.
“Mighty tight” for its “caliber”?
Kenworth?
Lol. Well it is truck grade thread specs. M14x1.5 can be found on Ford F-450 and many other trucks.
Fasteners are typically characterized by material grade, finish, thread pitch and detailing.
Just google: thread, thread pitch, clamping force, preload, fastener grade, torque vs preload tables, maybe pick up a machinists reference.
It may “seem” high, but only because of our experience with weaker previous generation passenger car 1/2” or M12 fasteners.

z31maniac · Nov 28, 2017

Norm Peterson said:
Time consuming . . . I guess it does add a little time, I just don't put myself under time pressure for this, as I'll address in a little more detail later in the post.

It's still better than the alternative, where an uncalibrated "mildly tight" can still leave you with a centering error. Been there.

FWIW, I will run the lug nuts down to "first impact" with the cordless impact set on low speed/low power, which ends up being much less torque than the 25-ish ft*lbs I get with the ratchet-wrench snug. That's my only concession to "speed" here (especially with the ARP studs, which are pretty long if you're only using 1/8" spacers or none at all).

I have had a wheel separate from the car (probably a single OE stud failure followed by a zipper-style failure of the other 4 in quick succession, zero warning). Always torqued to spec, just not with as fussy a procedure, though there is some possibility of one overtorque situation out of my control having occurred. So I'm REALLY HESITANT about endorsing ANY shortcuts with wheel mounting.

I'll get the next round . . . :cheers:

Norm

Again, interesting. Myself and everyone else I converse with at the track does it the way I'm speaking of.

If you can't line up a wheel with a hub ring and pushing the lugs down tight on the wheel, if this is beyond someone's mechanical skill level, I would highly suggest they not be on a race track for HPDE, or hell, even be allowed behind the wheel.

Norm Peterson · Nov 28, 2017

z31maniac said:
Again, interesting. Myself and everyone else I converse with at the track does it the way I'm speaking of.

And I've had cars (and/or wheels) where that was entirely sufficient.

But when that's not good enough, you owe it to yourself to have paid attention and gotten fussier.

On paying attention . . . every time . . .
I actually have a 1/8" spacer that's too tight of a fit on a front hub, which could at least conceivably affect wheel clamping loads, maybe even flush wheel seating relative to the rotor hat. This isn't something you should have to expect, but there it was. I think a little sanding on the ID is going to solve that one.

And I had to drill out a McGard locking bolt on my daughter's car this past weekend, almost certainly because of improper torquing the last time the wheel was off. Guaranteed this was a hasty bull-in-a-china-shop approach with an air impact, let's just say I have a pretty good idea who was responsible and leave it at that.

Norm

z31maniac · Nov 28, 2017

Yeah, I've had that happen before on street only cars.

Tried to get the wheel off later and shattered 19mm Snap On sockets.

Grintch · Nov 28, 2017

Avoid the plastic ones. They are worse than not running centering rings.

At less than 1mm thick, I would not bother trying to get aluminum rings.

Austinj427 · Nov 28, 2017

I've run plastic centering rings on the track.

Aside from them breaking from the heat, after removal, I've never had an issue with a wheel coming lose.

This does make sense that it could happen if the ring was the incorrect size and got sandwiched, then melted, which would make it weaker.

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