DCT vs A10

I have no experience with Ford-sourced DCTs, but the one in my EVOX went out under stock power levels within 90k miles, a large portion of which were hyper-miling highway miles. It only really shifted tightly and fast for the first 30k miles or so. After that it would slip until it settled. Eventually, it just went haywire. A large majority of the community are a bit in denial about it, as they all suggest you "should have manually shifted in sport mode to save the clutches". If I am going to do that, I am going to buy a manual that can handle 200 more ft/lbs of torque anyways. So, on at least one flagship sports platform, it's considered a failure.

And here I am today.

Spork3245 said:

Geeze, then going DCT makes even less sense. They’d likely save a lot of money by just tuning the existing 10-speed.

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Well.. I guess they did it because the DCT tends to be better around track and the GT500 will be a track focused (however it still needs to be an auto for "best in class" straight line performance... obviously the Demon is not in the same class :ford.

Nameless said:

Well.. I guess they did it because the DCT tends to be better around track and the GT500 will be a track focused (however it still needs to be an auto for "best in class" straight line performance... obviously the Demon is not in the same class :ford.

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What makes a DCT better around a track then the A10? The A10 supposedly out-shifts a PDK.

Spork3245 said:

What makes a DCT better around a track then the A10? The A10 supposedly out-shifts a PDK.

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What about downshifts?

I mean, maybe the A10 shifts faster and it's better in straight line, but not so good doing downshifts.

Maybe...

Nameless said:

What about downshifts?

I mean, maybe the A10 shifts faster and it's better in straight line, but not so good doing downshifts.

Maybe...

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I said “out-shifts”, never specified up or down, nor did the testing data afaik. Figure it means both.

Clean, Crisp, and Fast Shifts
With a low first-gear ratio of 4.696, the torque converter basically aids in a smooth launch, then quickly locks up and stays that way. Shifting is controlled by the six clutches, which engage and disengage two at a time to swap cogs swiftly and smoothly. These shifts do not require the torque converter to unlock, which would decrease efficiency. These clutches are controlled by integrated solenoid valves, which respond more quickly than the usual two-piece designs. The system has also been designed to minimize the length of the hydraulic passages and optimize the clutch designs for quick fill times—all in the interest of faster and more responsive clutch operation. Although we’re skeptical, and these kinds of claims are heavily dependent on exactly what constitutes the start and end of a shift, Chevrolet claims that in the Camaro ZL-1, the transmission shifts 26 to 36 percent more quickly than Porsche’s PDK, at least through fourth gear. The transmission can also perform large, multi-gear downshifts—directly from tenth to fifth, or ninth to fourth—smoothly and rapidly. There’s also a one-way clutch, which smoothly and cleanly disengages the transmission when rolling to a stop, avoiding a potentially jarring 3-1 downshift.

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https://www.caranddriver.com/flipbo...-new-fordgm-10-speed-automatic-transmission#9

Spork3245 said:

https://www.caranddriver.com/flipbo...-new-fordgm-10-speed-automatic-transmission#9

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Great find. Again makes me question the DCT :shrug:

SlaughterOfTheSoul said:

I have no experience with Ford-sourced DCTs, but the one in my EVOX went out under stock power levels within 90k miles, a large portion of which were hyper-miling highway miles. It only really shifted tightly and fast for the first 30k miles or so. After that it would slip until it settled. Eventually, it just went haywire. A large majority of the community are a bit in denial about it, as they all suggest you "should have manually shifted in sport mode to save the clutches". If I am going to do that, I am going to buy a manual that can handle 200 more ft/lbs of torque anyways. So, on at least one flagship sports platform, it's considered a failure.

And here I am today.

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The only Ford DCT (Getrag) I've had experience with was in the 2012 Focus. They called it the PowerShift and it was really jerky in regular driving. They ended up switching over to a normal automatic in the US, but it stayed on in European models.

DCTs have low speed smoothness problems, think newbie driver on manual trying to be smooth at low speeds. Higher cost, weight, maintenance for what faster shifts that dont matter for everyday driving? Only bleeding edge users would truly use a DCT. A fast torque converter is good enough for 99.99% of users. Even on Acuras 8 speed DCT, gears 1-2 is controlled by a torque converter, its there for a reason. And you have the torque multiplication you get from a converter

http://articles.sae.org/13432/

Hi Guys, my take on a proper DCT vs A10 regarding road course use:

For a good example of proper DCT function, the Porsche PDK with sport mode is more like what we see in the Ford GT, and hopefully the GT500. There are no low speed drivability issues with a proper DCT. (If I remember correctly, DCTs in the Focus were a dry clutch system. DCTs in cars like the Focus, or VW Golf are not good representations of what these transmissions can do).
For road course work, there really is no comparison between a good DCT and a tranny like the A10. Marketing guys may try and convince us that it will work as fast or faster than a DCT by cherrypicking a few quick upshifts. What they don't tell you is the only way this works is if you let it shift all by itself. All bets are off is you try to do it manually. You have little control other than by using throttle.
Many people don't realize that a DCT can function as fully automatic, fully manual, or back and forth instantaneously without you even thinking about it. You can also control the personality from shifting soft and baby smooth, to snapping your head back and catching rubber on the shift without having to use the throttle pedal to create this. On a track, you can hold a DCT tranny right up to the rev limiter and not worry about an upshift right at the exact moment you need a downshift. You can also switch gears up or down instantly without changing throttle so you can use gearing as well as throttle and brake for balance and control. An A10 you can only use brake and throttle.
Basically, the DCT can be engaging like a manual and used as an advantage tool on the track. The only way for an A10 to work properly on track is to let it do what it wants and rely on brake and throttle. And DCT will also function just as well if not better on track in full automatic mode than the A10 if you just want to let it do the work.
There is no doubt in my mind that the GT500 will be a far better and faster road course car equipped with a DCT than it would with the A10. My hope is that Ford uses the DCT.

I'm not trying to argue since I have absolutely no experience with DCT transmissions other than a couple of low speed test drives in Focus/Fiesta's to see how civilized they might have finally become.

That said I'm confused since my A10 in manual mode in street "serious testing while trying not to crash or kill somebody" seems to do what you say it doesn't do. Have you driven the Mustang A10 on a track or close enough using the paddles?

Specifically in manual mode I can hold any gear at or near the redline and manual upshifts at full throttle are fast. I assume that in track use in manual mode the driver will downshift during braking zones and both the A10 and a sequential DCT (I assume DCT's are sequential shift in manual mode so correct me if this isn't true) will rev match. Most track up or down shifting with any manual control transmission is only going to be between a few gears in a street car with how many gears dependent on how close the ratios are in the relevant range.

What am I missing?

FYI This is very preliminary info subject to more careful data collection but when testing installation of a Race Technology DL1 using OBD rpm and throttle position inputs I did some "7th or higher" (the RT software only goes to 7 gears) then "mash the throttle" downshifts. Trans was in D (full automatic) and drive mode was normal. Each time the trans shifted to the lowest possible gear for the road speed in about 1 to 1.5 seconds from coasting with closed throttle in 7th+ to high revs and max longitudinal acceleration in 2nd or 3rd depending on the initial speed. Obviously in this situation any sequential manual control shifting that could not skip gears would take much longer. So would manual shifting from say 6th gear to 2nd gear in an H pattern trans with no prior notice/plan. Also obviously any driver who was prepared for the need/desire to accelerate at maximum rates would already be in the needed gear or no more than one gear higher so any type of manual shifting would be faster than manually skipping multiple ratios.

One thing I do wonder about is how the A10 and a top level DCT compare in regard to heat generation and impact on performance. GM apparently believes they have A10 heat management under control.

Again, not trying to argue because the amount of actual facts I have is very limited.

Thanks,

Dick

Lacquer said:

Hi Guys, my take on a proper DCT vs A10 regarding road course use:

For a good example of proper DCT function, the Porsche PDK with sport mode is more like what we see in the Ford GT, and hopefully the GT500. There are no low speed drivability issues with a proper DCT. (If I remember correctly, DCTs in the Focus were a dry clutch system. DCTs in cars like the Focus, or VW Golf are not good representations of what these transmissions can do).
For road course work, there really is no comparison between a good DCT and a tranny like the A10. Marketing guys may try and convince us that it will work as fast or faster than a DCT by cherrypicking a few quick upshifts. What they don't tell you is the only way this works is if you let it shift all by itself. All bets are off is you try to do it manually. You have little control other than by using throttle.
Many people don't realize that a DCT can function as fully automatic, fully manual, or back and forth instantaneously without you even thinking about it. You can also control the personality from shifting soft and baby smooth, to snapping your head back and catching rubber on the shift without having to use the throttle pedal to create this. On a track, you can hold a DCT tranny right up to the rev limiter and not worry about an upshift right at the exact moment you need a downshift. You can also switch gears up or down instantly without changing throttle so you can use gearing as well as throttle and brake for balance and control. An A10 you can only use brake and throttle.
Basically, the DCT can be engaging like a manual and used as an advantage tool on the track. The only way for an A10 to work properly on track is to let it do what it wants and rely on brake and throttle. And DCT will also function just as well if not better on track in full automatic mode than the A10 if you just want to let it do the work.
There is no doubt in my mind that the GT500 will be a far better and faster road course car equipped with a DCT than it would with the A10. My hope is that Ford uses the DCT.

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Have you used the A10 in manual mode? Your post makes me question if you have; the A10 will not automatically shift when approaching the rev limiter when left in manual mode. In fact, it can and will hit the fuel cutoff mark if you don’t shift.

I haven't had any time in the Mustang but have had experience with the Camaro. From what I know, using the A10 manual there is a delay from paddle request to shift, especially in downshifting. This may not seem like it is significant delay, but it really affects track use. I do not know of any that use manual mode on track instead auto mode. I have spent a lot of time in sequentials and DCTs, but maybe the A10 is better than my brief experiences, but I am just so impressed with DCT for how good they are in so many applications.

Lacquer said:

I haven't had any time in the Mustang but have had experience with the Camaro. From what I know, using the A10 manual there is a delay from paddle request to shift, especially in downshifting. This may not seem like it is significant delay, but it really affects track use. I do not know of any that use manual mode on track instead auto mode. I have spent a lot of time in sequentials and DCTs, but maybe the A10 is better than my brief experiences, but I am just so impressed with DCT for how good they are in so many applications.

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The shifts were seemingly instant in my test drives when tapping the paddles in manual sport mode on the Mustang GT. As fast as any DCT I’ve flicked paddles on. The test drive lengths were not significant, however, and I only went to manual mode for a minute or so on each test drive.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/first-ride-we-get-a-taste-of-the-2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-wvideo/
They also look/sound instant in the video within that article.
What am I missing? (I’m honestly asking and not trying to be confrontational btw)

I'm with you, no disrespect to the A10, but just answering what the OP asked. I prefer the DCT and think it is a better choice for the new GT500.