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Old 02-05-2018, 06:56 AM   #4681
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Originally Posted by MakStang View Post
@JWR the figures you are going after are on pump gas? According to Adam, the engine will start knocking at around 380whp on pump gas and as Steve said it will start crapping out at around 425whp. Very interested in your findings. I would love to be able to find a kit in the market that includes an upgraded turbo (Precision seems to be a very good choice) + necessary internals + tune.

Please keep us posted. Do you mind me asking to post this in the European section as well, as I am in this thread only occasionally?
no problem in posting our info wherever you want to

we are currently running on 'pump gas' , either Shell Nitro or Tesco 99

I'm extremely cautious about what any of the US tuners tell me , of course we respect them and they are still the best source for tuning the Mustang EB but many of them just cant help themselves with overblown claims (or at least not elaborating on how they achieve their results)

the setup we have on our car was a kit that a certain US tuner had big involvement with , working closely with the turbo manufacturer and making the software to suit. Between them claims of 450 - 475 engine power from the kit were thrown about but in reality we never saw anything near that.

We know the turbo can reach 500hp so that not a factor in why its not making it, for some reason you just cant extract any info from the US as to why their claims are so high or why the same car with the same kit is way down here in the UK

Eventual prodding and checking suggest that in many case the US boys are using E30 or E85 fuel to achieve their gains , whether that would show a 40 - 60hp gain I'm not so sure but it may explain some of the difference

We could put rocket fuel in our car but that's not the point, we are trying to build a car that produces the right results in full road going trim and with fuel I can buy in most towns!

We are close to dyno testing the car again and will see if this latest mod pushes us a little closer to where we want to be

cheers

Jason
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:18 AM   #4682
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no problem in posting our info wherever you want to

we are currently running on 'pump gas' , either Shell Nitro or Tesco 99

I'm extremely cautious about what any of the US tuners tell me , of course we respect them and they are still the best source for tuning the Mustang EB but many of them just cant help themselves with overblown claims (or at least not elaborating on how they achieve their results)

the setup we have on our car was a kit that a certain US tuner had big involvement with , working closely with the turbo manufacturer and making the software to suit. Between them claims of 450 - 475 engine power from the kit were thrown about but in reality we never saw anything near that.

We know the turbo can reach 500hp so that not a factor in why its not making it, for some reason you just cant extract any info from the US as to why their claims are so high or why the same car with the same kit is way down here in the UK

Eventual prodding and checking suggest that in many case the US boys are using E30 or E85 fuel to achieve their gains , whether that would show a 40 - 60hp gain I'm not so sure but it may explain some of the difference

We could put rocket fuel in our car but that's not the point, we are trying to build a car that produces the right results in full road going trim and with fuel I can buy in most towns!

We are close to dyno testing the car again and will see if this latest mod pushes us a little closer to where we want to be

cheers

Jason
As you rightly say, most of America quotes their "fbo" or turbo non block upgraded figures are with e30/85. I had the same issue with them when I posted my dyno results. E30/E85 seems to do wonders on this platform, however it has a bit of a pig of the time with some components, part of the unfortunate side effects of modding, is one mod then creates another.
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:25 AM   #4683
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Dropped mine off again @ Think Ford Guildford for round 2 of the wet carpet saga. Got the new Fiesta as a courtesy car, very nice indeed
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:30 AM   #4684
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As you rightly say, most of America quotes their "fbo" or turbo non block upgraded figures are with e30/85. I had the same issue with them when I posted my dyno results. E30/E85 seems to do wonders on this platform, however it has a bit of a pig of the time with some components, part of the unfortunate side effects of modding, is one mod then creates another.
we will just carry on tuning on normal fuel , its the best way forward until the UK starts selling E30 / E85 on a decent scale

will do a video of the next dyno run and post the results when we have them

cheers

Jason
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:41 AM   #4685
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we will just carry on tuning on normal fuel , its the best way forward until the UK starts selling E30 / E85 on a decent scale

will do a video of the next dyno run and post the results when we have them

cheers

Jason
Sounds good, all your runs have been on the same dyno haven't they (Rookie sh1t) so can see each "Jump" in power per mod.

I'm running a few logs tonight on my HPFP and LPF to see if they're stuttering under power, and therefore holding some power back from the car. But at a c2k fix, I could just get a turbo.

Which turbo are you currently running? As the TN drop in one seems Best in slot for stock motors / FBO applications with "large turbo"s needing new flanges, downpipes, other pipes the whole shebang, along with a new block before the block bangs too :P!
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:41 AM   #4686
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we didn't see the HPFP holding us back to we went past 400hp so you can defo add a turbo upgrade of some nature before the HPFP

we are using a Borg Warner unit but it was part of a kit and as you say that kit requires manifolds etc so becomes quite an investment as it wont likely mount to your existing exhaust either

most kits come with new intercooler piping , blow off valves and anything else they can chuck in

if you are not worried about big power a hybrid might be the way forward just to squeeze a bit more from the car without having to change anything but the turbo

problem there is I guarantee Adam will tell you its a waste of time

he might be right but I just find the whole dismissal of things to try a bit frustrating , why not at least give it a go and see what can be done , generally speaking hybrids do have an effect

I have spare turbos here so could easily get one built if interested

what was the unit you were referring to ?

cheers

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Old 02-05-2018, 09:11 AM   #4687
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we didn't see the HPFP holding us back to we went past 400hp so you can defo add a turbo upgrade of some nature before the HPFP

we are using a Borg Warner unit but it was part of a kit and as you say that kit requires manifolds etc so becomes quite an investment as it wont likely mount to your existing exhaust either

most kits come with new intercooler piping , blow off valves and anything else they can chuck in

if you are not worried about big power a hybrid might be the way forward just to squeeze a bit more from the car without having to change anything but the turbo

problem there is I guarantee Adam will tell you its a waste of time

he might be right but I just find the whole dismissal of things to try a bit frustrating , why not at least give it a go and see what can be done , generally speaking hybrids do have an effect

I have spare turbos here so could easily get one built if interested

what was the unit you were referring to ?

cheers

Jason
It's the one adams hyping at the moment, the turbonetics nx2, it's a drop in like the vargas was, not a turbo kit. so it's stock placement, does a bit better with power listings (think both were rated to go around 500 on fbo + supporting mods/fuel etc). After vargas decided their turbos would go explode a compressor wheel and sh1t their guts out. Which is apparently something they did on bimmers too

As for hybrids, it's worth a try, why not, if it adds power.
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:42 AM   #4688
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That TN unit is essentially what I'm running but without the hassle , when I got my kit you couldn't get these type of units. Hence having to buy a kit with a manifold etc included

What you see there makes life so much easier as it incorporates the required manifold and I guess accepts all stock hardware so you don't have to change cooler pipes , downpipes and so on

problem is like all turbos / turbo kits they claim 500/520+ and they can achieve it but they wont get anywhere near unless you change all the other parts like the exhaust system , intercooler and hard pipes , fuel pump , software etc etc

cheers

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Old 02-05-2018, 10:00 AM   #4689
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That TN unit is essentially what I'm running but without the hassle , when I got my kit you couldn't get these type of units. Hence having to buy a kit with a manifold etc included

What you see there makes life so much easier as it incorporates the required manifold and I guess accepts all stock hardware so you don't have to change cooler pipes , downpipes and so on

problem is like all turbos / turbo kits they claim 500/520+ and they can achieve it but they wont get anywhere near unless you change all the other parts like the exhaust system , intercooler and hard pipes , fuel pump , software etc etc

cheers

Jason
Oh god yeah, much easier now with drop in filters, any tool box mechanic could install it.

But yes, as I said, you can't get their peak power without the supporting mods, fuel, etc. Usually the peak BHP ignores things like NOS, Meth, etc. Alas, with turbos you also can land into the world of "drivability vs power" where, there are turbos that'll put the EBM way into the high 800s wheel horses, but, the car drives like total sh1te because it only hits high BHP for a fraction of a second. Whereas ideally you want something that spools fast (Ball bearing twin scroll usually) with something that pumps a boatload of sustainable power out.
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:20 AM   #4690
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Oh god yeah, much easier now with drop in filters, any tool box mechanic could install it.

But yes, as I said, you can't get their peak power without the supporting mods, fuel, etc. Usually the peak BHP ignores things like NOS, Meth, etc. Alas, with turbos you also can land into the world of "drivability vs power" where, there are turbos that'll put the EBM way into the high 800s wheel horses, but, the car drives like total sh1te because it only hits high BHP for a fraction of a second. Whereas ideally you want something that spools fast (Ball bearing twin scroll usually) with something that pumps a boatload of sustainable power out.
indeed, not sure we will go for silly power , probably 500ish at the crank will be nice

for that likely need cams , rods , pistons , bearings , bit of head work etc

not too sure if I need to go to the extreme of swapping the block out for the 2.0 version

that's another expensive route as Ford UK wont just sell the block , you have to get all the internals as well (although I guess they will have some 2nd hand value)
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:34 AM   #4691
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I finally got round to my first mod today. This meant I was able to get my fender protectors out for the first time in 9 years!!



I fitted the Ford Performance hood struts and wasn't keen on the instructions stating I should drill a 1" hole in the battery cover. I had a better idea..



I thought I'd cut a hole the same shape as the support so it would look a little tidier when in place. I think it does??



I'm sad like that, and will spend longer doing a job if I think I can get a better result.
Excellent neat job done there..

I am just about to fit my exact same ones...in a Grabber Blue too..
Did you make a template up first or just guesswork as you went along..

What did you cut the plastic with may i ask..
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:16 PM   #4692
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indeed, not sure we will go for silly power , probably 500ish at the crank will be nice

for that likely need cams , rods , pistons , bearings , bit of head work etc

not too sure if I need to go to the extreme of swapping the block out for the 2.0 version

that's another expensive route as Ford UK wont just sell the block , you have to get all the internals as well (although I guess they will have some 2nd hand value)
Yeah 500 you can get with uprating internals, along with some minor supporting mods when doing the engine like gaskets etc. (and welding the soft spot), once you start running into the modded blocks you can go high power, but then you're paying for a new block.

have you considered a Balance shaft delete yet? I've seen a few guys talking up some 'gains' with this? (gains as in, less vibration on the engine and lessening the fail rate of engines, but not seen anything concrete)
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Old 02-05-2018, 12:38 PM   #4693
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Yeah 500 you can get with uprating internals, along with some minor supporting mods when doing the engine like gaskets etc. (and welding the soft spot), once you start running into the modded blocks you can go high power, but then you're paying for a new block.

have you considered a Balance shaft delete yet? I've seen a few guys talking up some 'gains' with this? (gains as in, less vibration on the engine and lessening the fail rate of engines, but not seen anything concrete)

At the end of the day the only reason most people went for the eb over the v8 was insurance since its certainly not economy (eb is barely better than the v8).
So the obvious primary issue here is cost once you start spending thousands on the EB you'd be better off just buying a crate v8 and sticking it in there. or holding out a couple of years until the insurance dives then buy the v8 and have instantly the power levels that you're talking about spending thousands to reach.

Don't get me wrong i'm all for tuning where there's no better engine options available but in your case there's better engine options available!
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Old 02-05-2018, 01:04 PM   #4694
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At the end of the day the only reason most people went for the eb over the v8 was insurance since its certainly not economy (eb is barely better than the v8).
So the obvious primary issue here is cost once you start spending thousands on the EB you'd be better off just buying a crate v8 and sticking it in there. or holding out a couple of years until the insurance dives then buy the v8 and have instantly the power levels that you're talking about spending thousands to reach.

Don't get me wrong i'm all for tuning where there's no better engine options available but in your case there's better engine options available!
Valid points. FWIW I was at this moral dilemma about a year ago...did a fair amount of research on tuning the EB, as you say - it is an expensive game. Even had an exhaust picked out.

Figured that the 2k or so I was planning on spending could go towards a v8, so that's what I did. Took me a lifetime to make that decision but that was my personal preference.

That said, I do miss the EB at times & I understand why people buy it/stick with it - it's more suited as a daily driver, easier on the wallet etc. Insurance wasn't a big deal for me luckily, and I will be paying less in tax in July than I did for the EB! (140 vs 230)
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:14 AM   #4695
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At the end of the day the only reason most people went for the eb over the v8 was insurance since its certainly not economy (eb is barely better than the v8).
So the obvious primary issue here is cost once you start spending thousands on the EB you'd be better off just buying a crate v8 and sticking it in there. or holding out a couple of years until the insurance dives then buy the v8 and have instantly the power levels that you're talking about spending thousands to reach.

Don't get me wrong i'm all for tuning where there's no better engine options available but in your case there's better engine options available!
lots of sense to this argument but again insurance wasn't the point for me

I wanted to get into a mustang the 5k or so saving on the EB vs the V8 , the chance to at least make a start on the tuning side before the RS boys got into the motor was also of interest to us in particular

the weight was an issue too , I considered the lower kerb weight of the EB an advantage also

If I look at the engine modifications alone (cos most of the other mods cost the same on a V8 as they do on EB) I still think I'm inside the cost of the V8 , particularly as certain parts are now more suitable and therefore more economical to reach the same point.

I guess its swings and roundabouts but its been a fun challenge trying to get the EB into and beyond V8 power

For us early birds buying the 2015 / 2016 cars the gap wasn't so small and the V8 was indeed a great buy for only a few more but now the gap has widened I believe and the EB will prove ever more popular I'm sure

cheers

Jason
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