Will probably switch back to BMW. (No, not a troll!)

Norm Peterson said:

Getting the bugs out is one thing. What "refined" means to me is going beyond that point in the name of further isolating the driver from the business and sensations of driving. Maybe "over-refined" would be a better term; or giving the car a 'softer' or 'gentler' character, if that makes sense.


Norm

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Yeah I agree, that is how it's normally executed. BMWs, for instance, have gone from being goldilocks on the refinement scale (early to mid 2000s cars) to over-refined, sterile and synthetic speed machines. Every time I hear the in-cabin engine note from an M3/M4 it makes me cringe.

Ammo50 said:

Yeah, absolutely. Ownership costs on BMWs are expensive, everyone knows that. With a lease, you gas and go, then give it back when you are probably bored with it already. Everything is covered during the duration of the lease, though - which makes it appealing to many people..

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Leasing isn't the sweet spot though, I'm sure you agree, but it is appealing.

There are loads of people who turn low mileage leased BMWs in with the car looking brand new after 2-3 years, only 15-30K miles. Make sure you have/get some kind of transferable warranty and you're good to go with the initial depreciation over which is massive. BMW's issues typically just happen earlier, so dump the car before 60K miles. There are lots of M235Is you can pick up and only spend $3000-3500 a year on depreciation and be fine with a warranty.

The guy with a lease paid $700/month for the M235I, you can show up for $300 a month (depreciation cost not payment) if you own (of course, it's 3 years old now). People try to rationalize buying new but it basically is always a terrible proposition, even with unreliable BMWs. Lots of people don't drive their M235I hard (badge snobbing), you can get a really brand new seeming car. People owning a Mustang GT tend to be enthusiasts and drive harder, but I'm sure there are plenty of creampuffs, just fewer.

I'm looking at M235is and GTs right now crunching numbers. You could also just use something like swapalease to get your BMW fix for a few months. I'm considering an M235I lease on swapalease for 6 months then vulture a 15-17 GT after the '18s come out. People getting rid of the ass end of their lease throw cash on top and the numbers sometimes aren't that bad -- not as good as owning, but $500/month for a 6 month car experience isn't bad if you aren't sure you can commit.

dB Stang said:

And it's not like kids put a poster of an M240i on their walls, right? (?!)

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For me this phrase alone explains everything, why we have a Mustang

BmacIL said:

Yeah I agree, that is how it's normally executed. BMWs, for instance, have gone from being goldilocks on the refinement scale (early to mid 2000s cars) to over-refined, sterile and synthetic speed machines. Every time I hear the in-cabin engine note from an M3/M4 it makes me cringe.

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I'm bmw, mini cooper -> mustang convert.

Between mini and bmw I'd preffer mini in terms putting a smile on a face.

Bmw was overrefined to the point of being boooring. Lika a student with all As and Bs, but there's nothing to talk about besides school.

Mistang is not as refined, but I enjoy every communication with the car.

Both my mini and bmw had history of repairs that made us reluctant to take them far from home. Like, bmw was sold on its third waterpump and copper had seen several flatbed towing trucks in his life.

I'm baffled by the OP's argument of BMW having higher resale value. From what I've seen in the past and from a good friend who's a car buyer at Carmax - BMWs like MB, Audi have horrible re-sale value. If that is a main argument, get a Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ as it'll hold value pretty well.

The 2 seires BMW and Mustang are different in a lot of ways however. As previously mentioned - size is a big one along with engine setups. Not a fan of a vehicle that plays exhaust notes through car speakers. Then again the S550 has a sound tube routed into the cabin (that most people disconnect).

Now driving the Saleen or even if I was driving a non-Saleen, I know all those entry level bmw's, audi's, and benz' are just as basic anyway. If you need a change....you need a change. I know the Mustang adds that rebellious fun when you want to open it up. The imports with all their 4 cylinder tiny turbos in my opinion are boring. This is from a guy who's owned vw's and audi 2.0t's as well as 3.5L V6 benz'.

Op, get the car you've been wanting and don't think twice about it. BMW!

Also, dont forget to click here

Coming from an E92 twin turbo'd monster, I enjoy this debate. Yes, the new Mustang has become pricier, but to drop the American Icon for a new 240i? BMW lost their edge years ago; some say the E46 and others (like myself) say the end was the E92. If you "go back" to BMW, at least step up to a compriable "edgy" car and get the M2 (sorry, no drop-top). Anything else is just a fake-exhaust-stereo-blaring, plastic-leather feeling, and half-digital/half anolog gauge over-priced nonsense. My opinion, of course.

TomcatDriver said:

There is about a $8k price difference in base price between the M2 and M240, which is not trivial.

I was considering the same. Still do some days. When I test drove one it was nice, but felt antiseptic. Maybe it was the limited drive, but it just didn't feel very interesting.

I've had a couple older BMWs (E46). Still have one, and drove the other to almost $200K. They held up just fine, and repairs were not expensive, but the E46 was produced in huge numbers and parts are easy to find, not necessarily true on later models. Plus, I never take it to the dealer. Either I fix it myself or go to an independent. The way BMW locks everything down requiring dealer coding to change windshield wipers is pretty annoying (that's a joke, or is it?).

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I will have to agree.

BMW engineered their cars with so many techno-nannies that everyday driving is ho-hum. Not special and non-rewarding. It is only when you wring the car out, does it get phun, or emotional.

Additionally, the lack of feedback & feeling means there is zero reason to buy BMW, if other Manufacturers are going to offer the same eps steering, etc. The feel of bmw is not there anymore.

And, at least with Ford you don't suffer from clutch-delay valve and other mechanical nannies bmw uses to protect the german fragility. Not to mention Non-M bmw's also overheat, & heat soak easily. I noticed this during the dreamcruise last year. Was embarrassing for me, & my buddies M3.

I've had a number of BMW from the v8 to the twin turbo six and have had excellent reliability. Plenty of stories and experiences out there, but that's the same for all brands. My last N54 turbo car was very reliable, and that much more expensive to mod than my current mustang. I drove that car hard on a daily basis, but gave it the appropriate attention necessary for reliability. Given upgraded turbos, intercooler, JB4 and e85 the thing would lay down the power and surprise (maybe even embarrass) many.
Different means to similar happiness on completely different platforms. I wouldn't say that resale is great on either.

I owned 7 different BMW's from 1982 until 2016 when I bought my 2016 Mustang GT. one of the reasons I went to the Mustang is reliability. Also the last BMW I owned was a 2001 330ci coupe and even that car was a little soft when it comes to handling. It took a couple of upgrades like Dinan sway bars and Koni FSD shocks & struts, and a 04 ZHP steering rack to get the same driving feel as my 1994 M-Technic 325is. 2001 was the year for the over boosted power steering which BMW corrected the next model year. But that was a taste of what was to come in future BMW's. Also the next generation 3 series BMW the e92 lost the ability to check your oil with the elimination of the dip stick. I drove the seven BMW's a total of 500k miles but the only newer BMW that would interest me would be the M2 which would cost about $20k more that I paid for my 2016 Mustang GT. I did do some mods to my Mustang to improve the handling but it was almost had the same driving feel that I was used to from driving the BMW's strait from Ford. The one thing I don't like about the Mustang is the electric assisted power steering. It just doesn't have the same feel as hydraulic power steering. Would I buy another BMW other than an M2 probably not.

RonStang6G said:

I owned 7 different BMW's from 1982 until 2016 when I bought my 2016 Mustang GT. one of the reasons I went to the Mustang is reliability. Also the last BMW I owned was a 2001 330ci coupe and even that car was a little soft when it comes to handling. It took a couple of upgrades like Dinan sway bars and Koni FSD shocks & struts, and a 04 ZHP steering rack to get the same driving feel as my 1994 M-Technic 325is. 2001 was the year for the over boosted power steering which BMW corrected the next model year. But that was a taste of what was to come in future BMW's. Also the next generation 3 series BMW the e92 lost the ability to check your oil with the elimination of the dip stick. I drove the seven BMW's a total of 500k miles but the only newer BMW that would interest me would be the M2 which would cost about $20k more that I paid for my 2016 Mustang GT. I did do some mods to my Mustang to improve the handling but it was almost had the same driving feel that I was used to from driving the BMW's strait from Ford. The one thing I don't like about the Mustang is the electric assisted power steering. It just doesn't have the same feel as hydraulic power steering. Would I buy another BMW other than an M2 probably not.

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If I'm reading this correctly, the last BMW you owned was a 2001 that you swapped out in 2016 which made it 15 years old and you are comparing it to the reliability and features of a 2016 mustang? Plenty lacking in the ford quality department from 2001.

My lease ended on my BMW 435i coupe with M package in April. I added the Juicebox n55 Stage one and car had 6-speed manual (rare these days in BMW). That car was always in the shop, tons of rattles, brakes would squeak even after replaced and almost boring to drive. I also had a rock put a hole in my oil cooler,(not covered under warranty) it was almost $1700 to fix it, OUCH!!!!
I went with a 2016 Cali GT with 8000 miles and haven't looked back. Love my Mustang and the sound (roush exhaust). Surprisingly the Mustang actually has almost no rattles, and not one day goes by that I regretting not getting another BMW. I've done European Delivery each time, so I do miss that aspect, I've also owned a 2008 335 Coupe and a 2011 BMW 335iS (still love that car).

Oryx said:

If I'm reading this correctly, the last BMW you owned was a 2001 that you swapped out in 2016 which made it 15 years old and you are comparing it to the reliability and features of a 2016 mustang? Plenty lacking in the ford quality department from 2001.

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What I'm reading from Ron is that the whole driving character of most BMWs has been getting "softer" for something like 20 years, compared to where it was previously.

This has little to do with quality and nothing to do with features. Hell, adding features "softens" a car's character all by itself. Either by diluting the essence of driving directly or by distracting you so that you don't notice the softer chassis tuning as much. Buying back some performance with better tires doesn't undo the softening.


Norm

I've never owned a bimmer, but I've owned a beemer motorcycle for 20 years. Anyway, these newer Fords for me , have been rock solid for reliability. My 16 Mustang has not been in for warranty work yet. I have 20 k on it and it has been just fine.