MT Head 2 Head - 2018 Camaro SS 1LE vs 2018 Mustang GT

16 GT MM/Auto · Jan 22, 2018

likeaboss said:
... why can Ford not offer the same level of performance at the same price point?

So we'd sit on forums all day long arguing with Camaro guys?:rant:

Ohthatguy · Jan 22, 2018

likeaboss said:
It's pretty sad that you can't at least match the performance of your competitor's couple year old model with your latest. Even more so since the price advantage isn't there over the Camaro like the 15-17 models.

Performance:
Mustang GT = Camaro SS
Mustang GT PP1 = Camaro SS 1LE

By carrying over the GT350 Ford pretty much capped performance of the GT.

Well the 2018 Auto GT's are faster in a straight line than the SS / SS ILE and the non-R 350GT, right? So they moved the game on with the auto GT's.

thill444 · Jan 22, 2018

likeaboss said:
No I get it. My point is why can Ford not offer the same level of performance at the same price point?

Base Mustang GT no options $35,995
Camaro 1SS no options $37,995
Mustang GT Premium no options $39,995

Neither Mustang offers the same level of performance as the Camaro 1SS. It's just disappointing Ford can't offer a refreshed Mustang that can at least equal the performance of a three year old Camaro.

Because Ford is not as worried about lap times as many people here likely think. If Ford's priority with the 18 GT was to beat the SS/1LE lap times then they likely could have done it.

Ford is trying to sell cars to a marketshare that is shrinking (sportscar/musclecar sales). Look at the C6 Camaro as proof. While GM nailed the performance (really, the 6th Gen Camaro is a beast and might even be stealing sales from Corvette) sales are way down.

I think Ford, while improving performance, was also focused on making the refresh relevant enough to keep sales from declining even more.

nastang87xx · Jan 22, 2018

thill444 said:
Because Ford is not as worried about lap times as many people here likely think. If Ford's priority with the 18 GT was to beat the SS/1LE lap times then they likely could have done it.

Ford is trying to sell cars to a marketshare that is shrinking (sportscar/musclecar sales). Look at the C6 Camaro as proof. While GM nailed the performance (really, the 6th Gen Camaro is a beast and might even be stealing sales from Corvette) sales are way down.

I think Ford, while improving performance, was also focused on making the refresh relevant enough to keep sales from declining even more.

Exactly. The Mustang is selling regardless of its performance comparison to the Camaro SS. The goal is to move units, not beat up GM on the race track. The Mustang is still an every day man's affordable (relatively speaking) coupe.

The Camaro is the better PERFORMANCE car. Period. End of story. There is zero point in arguing it because if you do, you're wrong. Just stop. HOWEVER...as a CAR which would you rather have? That's a question only you as a consumer can decide. Both have pitfalls. Pick your poison.

Baron95 · Jan 22, 2018

EFI said:
I don't think anyone on here is saying that the 1LE is not the better performer stock for stock, even against the PP2. What we're saying is that the PP2 should close if not match the gap between the 1LE and current PP1.

No, it won't. It can't.

Maybe for ONE magazine lap it will.

But what will happen after 20 min pushing it on track or a summer day with no diff coolers, no transmission coolers, no oil coolers, one-piece rotors, sliding rear calipers?

What will happen after one, two, three season tracking it?

Keeping you engine/drivetrain/brakes cool on a track car is everything.

Do you think GM put those things on the 1LE because they want to make less money and make their cars heavier? No. They put them on because they are needed. Ford leaving them out is a joke.

1320' · Jan 22, 2018

Baron95 said:
No, it won't. It can't.

Maybe for ONE magazine lap it will.

But what will happen after 20 min pushing it on track or a summer day with no diff coolers, no transmission coolers, no oil coolers, one-piece rotors, sliding rear calipers?

What will happen after one, two, three season tracking it?

Keeping you engine/drivetrain/brakes cool on a track car is everything.

Do you think GM put those things on the 1LE because they want to make less money and make their cars heavier? No. They put them on because they are needed. Ford leaving them out is a joke.

Wait until the tests come out before you start your doom and gloom horseshit.

Seriously, you don't know what the PP2 can or can not do because it's not even been tested yet, much less been put up in a head to head comparison.

I'd recommend you watch yourself before you end up out in the cold.

thill444 · Jan 22, 2018

nastang87xx said:
Exactly. The Mustang is selling regardless of its performance comparison to the Camaro SS. The goal is to move units, not beat up GM on the race track. The Mustang is still an every day man's affordable (relatively speaking) coupe.

The Camaro is the better PERFORMANCE car. Period. End of story. There is zero point in arguing it because if you do, you're wrong. Just stop. HOWEVER...as a CAR which would you rather have? That's a question only you as a consumer can decide. Both have pitfalls. Pick your poison.

Great way of putting it.

thill444 · Jan 22, 2018

1320' said:
Wait until the tests come out before you start your doom and gloom horseshit.

Seriously, you don't know what the PP2 can or can not do because it's not even been tested yet, much less been put up in a head to head comparison.

I'd recommend you watch yourself before you end up out in the cold.

Yeah but he has a very valid point. GM seemed to learn from the 2015-16? C7 Z06 debacle where they did not have enough cooling and the car constantly loses power or goes into limp mode.

I see no reason not to provide the PP2 for the Mustang, but I think Ford should have included better cooling with the package. Hell look at the GT350. 2016's without the track pack (cooling) have issues on the track. Ford made the track pack standard on 17+18 after threats of lawsuits and people complaining.

I just don't think Ford is really trying to make the Mustang GT a track monster. They are offering packages for the folks who want to pay for them but likely are not serious about tracking the car, or expecting folks to add aftermarket cooling if they need it.

Ohthatguy · Jan 22, 2018

thill444 said:
I just don't think Ford is really trying to make the Mustang GT a track monster. They are offering packages for the folks who want to pay for them but likely are not serious about tracking the car, or expecting folks to add aftermarket cooling if they need it.

Yeah, nothing about the marketing really implies an intense focus there. Just presented as a pretty good all-around performer / American icon with a musclecar aftertaste.

Baron95 · Jan 22, 2018

1320' said:
Wait until the tests come out before you start your doom and gloom horseshit.

Which tests will you wait for? Which Magazine test will run the PP2 for 30 min sessions in the summer for a full day? Which ones will tell us how the drivetrain holds up after a few seasons of tracking?

Remember how the magazines raved about the GT350? Remember how owners who tracked the base or tech package (without the coolers) soon found out that it fell flat on its face? Which "test" told you that this would happen.

There are no shortcuts here. A track car either has a good cooling package or it doesn't.

If the PP2 cooling package is adequate for tracking, then it means that the regular Ecoboost and GT (non PP) have unnecessary cooling. That is to believe that Ford's track Mustang (PP2) has proper cooling without add-ons, is to believe that Ford burdened all the non-track models with heavy, expensive, unnecessary cooling. Do you think Ford is that stupid?

NoVaGT · Jan 22, 2018

Baron95 said:
Which tests will you wait for? Which Magazine test will run the PP2 for 30 min sessions in the summer for a full day? Which ones will tell us how the drivetrain holds up after a few seasons of tracking?

Remember how the magazines raved about the GT350? Remember how owners who tracked the base or tech package (without the coolers) soon found out that it fell flat on its face? Which "test" told you that this would happen.

There are no shortcuts here. A track car either has a good cooling package or it doesn't.

If the PP2 cooling package is adequate for tracking, then it means that the regular Ecoboost and GT (non PP) had unnecessary cooling. That is to believe that Ford's track Mustang (PP2) has proper cooling without add-ons, is to believe that Ford burdened all the non-track models with heavy, expensive unnecessary cooling. Do you think Ford is that stupid?

Hey dude, just chill out a bit on the cooling thing.

98.8% of Mustang owners, and probably 75% of GT350 owners, never track their cars. And if someone wants to, they should add the coolers themselves. Just like all the whiny GT350 non-R owners that threatened to sue Ford should have.

Caveat emptor.

You can't get so bent on something that means bupkiss to most people that own these cars.

We can applaud Chevy for putting coolers on their 1LE Camaros, but that doesn't mean Ford is wrong for not having them.

likeaboss · Jan 22, 2018

thill444 said:
Because Ford is not as worried about lap times as many people here likely think. If Ford's priority with the 18 GT was to beat the SS/1LE lap times then they likely could have done it.

Ford is trying to sell cars to a marketshare that is shrinking (sportscar/musclecar sales). Look at the C6 Camaro as proof. While GM nailed the performance (really, the 6th Gen Camaro is a beast and might even be stealing sales from Corvette) sales are way down.

I think Ford, while improving performance, was also focused on making the refresh relevant enough to keep sales from declining even more.

The reason the Gen 6 Camaro isn't selling as well is because the styling hampers daily usability. Hence why it's hovering around the Challenger that's a 10 year old design, but at least usable as a daily for many. Being able to see well out of the car and have a usable trunk are important to people who want a daily sports car as Mustang sales show. Clearly the Camaro's Alpha platform has the capabilities of providing a good balance of design and usability with the ATS-V Coupe. If Team Camaro can get it together and find a better balance of styling/usability while keeping their performance edge with the Camaro, then the Mustang will be in trouble.

GM doubled down on the shortcomings of the C5 Camaro design and are paying the price for it with sales even though they have the better performing product.

Ohthatguy · Jan 22, 2018

NoVaGT said:
Hey dude, just chill out a bit on the cooling thing.

98.8% of Mustang owners, and probably 75% of GT350 owners, never track their cars. And if someone wants to, they should add the coolers themselves. Just like all the whiny GT350 non-R owners that threatened to sue Ford should have.

Caveat emptor.

You can't get so bent on something that means bupkiss to most people that own these cars.

We can applaud Chevy for putting coolers on their 1LE Camaros, but that doesn't mean Ford is wrong for not having them.

Yeah, you can always get more coolers from Ford Racing when you need them. Here is the one I use for track work:
https://goo.gl/images/qVAbD9

thill444 · Jan 22, 2018

likeaboss said:
The reason the Gen 6 Camaro isn't selling as well is because the styling hampers daily usability. Hence why it's hovering around the Challenger that's a 10 year old design, but at least usable as a daily for many. Being able to see well out of the car and have a usable trunk are important to people who want a daily sports car as Mustang sales show. Clearly the Camaro's Alpha platform has the capabilities of providing a good balance of design and usability with the ATS-V Coupe. If Team Camaro can get it together and find a better balance of styling/usability while keeping their performance edge with the Camaro, then the Mustang will be in trouble.

GM doubled down on the shortcomings of the C5 Camaro design and are paying the price for it with sales even though they have the better performing product.

While I don't disagree with you the other issue that GM, Ford, and FCA face overall is just declining interest in this segment and also increasing costs. Just look at how much Mustang and Camaro have gone up since 2010 or so. Granted price increases are leading to overall much better cars with nicer interiors, more technology, better performance, and better safety.

But, my opinion, the price increases are not being offset by salaries and fewer people can afford these cars brand new. Also some of this is the rise in popularity of SUV's and trucks.

garagelogic · Jan 22, 2018

Threads tend to get that way when the trolls keep trying to incite a specific response and then fail to get it.

MT Head 2 Head - 2018 Camaro SS 1LE vs 2018 Mustang GT

16 GT MM/Auto

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Ohthatguy

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thill444

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nastang87xx

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Baron95

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1320'

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thill444

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thill444

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Ohthatguy

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Baron95

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NoVaGT

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likeaboss

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Ohthatguy

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thill444

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garagelogic

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