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jake_zx2

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But for you to say that everyone feels the way you do when it is clear that many people out there are buying these cars and are in love with them just means that you're the one in denial.
Well, when one car is quite consistently selling out the other, and a common complaint of the lesser selling one is visibility, then that USUALLY means that it's not just a special scenario. Hell, EVERY SINGLE REVIEW I've seen of the Camaro has someone complaining about the visibility. Now that I think about it, the ONLY people I've ever heard say "it's not that bad" or "you don't need any more" is Camaro owners themselves
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millhouse

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Well, when one car is quite consistently selling out the other, and a common complaint of the lesser selling one is visibility, then that USUALLY means that it's not just a special scenario. Hell, EVERY SINGLE REVIEW I've seen of the Camaro has someone complaining about the visibility. Now that I think about it, the ONLY people I've ever heard say "it's not that bad" or "you don't need any more" is Camaro owners themselves
And the head to heads are always the same. Close in performance, close in styling, close in materials, close in options, Camaro has poor visibility, poor trunk space and less rear leg room. Rinse and repeat.
 

jake_zx2

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I do see a time coming though when a HUD may be the only display option available.
With the way things are looking now, I would be surprised if that happened before informational displays were abolished completely as a result of Autonomy
 

millhouse

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With the way things are looking now, I would be surprised if that happened before informational displays were abolished completely as a result of Autonomy
One step at a time lol. I hate the thought of autonomy...until I hit a 2 hour traffic jam due to peoples selfishness and inability to figure out how to merge down to one lane during construction. Maybe that's the best of both worlds, free driving until traffic dictates otherwise. Socialist driving lite.
 

martinjlm

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With the way things are looking now, I would be surprised if that happened before informational displays were abolished completely as a result of Autonomy
One step at a time lol. I hate the thought of autonomy...until I hit a 2 hour traffic jam due to peoples selfishness and inability to figure out how to merge down to one lane during construction. Maybe that's the best of both worlds, free driving until traffic dictates otherwise. Socialist driving lite.
Talk on autonomy has the cart way ahead of the horse. Of course, if it were truly autonomous, the cart wouldn’t need the horse. :lol:

But seriously....even the most aggressive projections for autonomous vehicle implementation will have all of us looking up at the grass before there are enough autonomous vehicles on the road to even consider “restricting” or banning human driving. If need be, I can provide some of the math that shows it would take decades if every country and every automaker agreed to start doing that right now. It’s staggering. Will there be autonomous vehicles soon? Absolutely. For very specific use cases. But we’ll still be able to cruise the boulevards in our petroleum powered speedwagons for the foreseeable future.

It should also be noted that there are five definable levels of autonomy, three of which require human driving capability. We’ll still get to drive our cars, gentlemen.
 

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Jdenkevitz

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Talk on autonomy has the cart way ahead of the horse. Of course, if it were truly autonomous, the cart wouldn’t need the horse. :lol:

But seriously....even the most aggressive projections for autonomous vehicle implementation will have all of us looking up at the grass before there are enough autonomous vehicles on the road to even consider “restricting” or banning human driving. If need be, I can provide some of the math that shows it would take decades if every country and every automaker agreed to start doing that right now. It’s staggering. Will there be autonomous vehicles soon? Absolutely. For very specific use cases. But we’ll still be able to cruise the boulevards in our petroleum powered speedwagons for the foreseeable future.

It should also be noted that there are five definable levels of autonomy, three of which require human driving capability. We’ll still get to drive our cars, gentlemen.
I think one has to consider that its not only one of regulation forcing autonomy, it is insurance rates. Rates will increase for those who insist on self driving.
 

jake_zx2

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Talk on autonomy has the cart way ahead of the horse. Of course, if it were truly autonomous, the cart wouldn’t need the horse. :lol:

But seriously....even the most aggressive projections for autonomous vehicle implementation will have all of us looking up at the grass before there are enough autonomous vehicles on the road to even consider “restricting” or banning human driving. If need be, I can provide some of the math that shows it would take decades if every country and every automaker agreed to start doing that right now. It’s staggering. Will there be autonomous vehicles soon? Absolutely. For very specific use cases. But we’ll still be able to cruise the boulevards in our petroleum powered speedwagons for the foreseeable future.

It should also be noted that there are five definable levels of autonomy, three of which require human driving capability. We’ll still get to drive our cars, gentlemen.
Sure, but its only been about 15 years or so since Hybrid technology started becoming about as prevalent as autonomy is now, and European countries are already talking about banning ICE vehicles within the next 20 years. Slightly less extreme, but I could see full autonomy occurring in my lifetime
 

thehunterooo

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Thank you ST1LE for this post.

"It's trolling because all you ever have to say is negative things about the Camaro, and defense for the Mustang. You know that though, so stop playing around."
 

BmacIL

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Talk on autonomy has the cart way ahead of the horse. Of course, if it were truly autonomous, the cart wouldn’t need the horse. :lol:

But seriously....even the most aggressive projections for autonomous vehicle implementation will have all of us looking up at the grass before there are enough autonomous vehicles on the road to even consider “restricting” or banning human driving. If need be, I can provide some of the math that shows it would take decades if every country and every automaker agreed to start doing that right now. It’s staggering. Will there be autonomous vehicles soon? Absolutely. For very specific use cases. But we’ll still be able to cruise the boulevards in our petroleum powered speedwagons for the foreseeable future.

It should also be noted that there are five definable levels of autonomy, three of which require human driving capability. We’ll still get to drive our cars, gentlemen.
This guy knows what's up. Wall Street's fervor and the general public is way optimistic and unrealistic when it comes to implementation of autonomous tech mainstream. We have a LONG way to go, and I'll probably be retired or at retirement age before they're the majority of vehicles on the road.
 

bootlegger

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This guy knows what's up. Wall Street's fervor and the general public is way optimistic and unrealistic when it comes to implementation of autonomous tech mainstream. We have a LONG way to go, and I'll probably be retired or at retirement age before they're the majority of vehicles on the road.
At that point, I doubt many cars will have combustion engines.
 

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Nascar would be very boring without combustion engines. They would have to pump the engine sounds over speakers.
 

4V Mayhem

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Well, when one car is quite consistently selling out the other, and a common complaint of the lesser selling one is visibility, then that USUALLY means that it's not just a special scenario. Hell, EVERY SINGLE REVIEW I've seen of the Camaro has someone complaining about the visibility. Now that I think about it, the ONLY people I've ever heard say "it's not that bad" or "you don't need any more" is Camaro owners themselves
The Mustang has outsold the Camaro for a long time and visibility had nothing to do with it. So I'm not seeing how now all of a sudden it's this huge thing that means woe for GM, lol!! And I've argued this before, sales by itself means nothing. It's like looking at someone's income and making a determination of them without knowing their debt. The Camaro doesn't sell as well. But without knowing how much it costs to build them and the expenses and factoring that in against how much it brings in with sales this all just becomes assumption. because in all honesty, the Camaro might sell enough that at the end of the day it is bringing in just as much money as the Mustang is. Kinda like, one guy can sell 100 items for $1 each while another guy sells 50 items for $2 each. You can talk about how much more you sold over him. But end of the day you both brought home $100. Without a breakdown of everything involved every statement based on sales is speculative.
 

martinjlm

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Well, when one car is quite consistently selling out the other, and a common complaint of the lesser selling one is visibility, then that USUALLY means that it's not just a special scenario. Hell, EVERY SINGLE REVIEW I've seen of the Camaro has someone complaining about the visibility. Now that I think about it, the ONLY people I've ever heard say "it's not that bad" or "you don't need any more" is Camaro owners themselves
And who would know better?
 

millhouse

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And who would know better?
How about all of the people that GM missed out on sales because they didn't care for the visibility? ;)

A good read....

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/02/explained-why-the-chevrolet-camaro-has-such-poor-visibility/

A few notable quotes...

"Oppenheiser stated the team was well aware of the fifth-generation car’s poor visibility, and immediately considered raising the roof and lowering the beltline among various other minor tweaks. But none of it never made it to a single design sketch. Why? The people.

The Camaro team decided to hold a clinic, which Oppenheiser stated rarely happens, but upon inviting a group of people to compare the fifth-generation Camaro to the Mustang, Challenger and Nissan 370Z, the group called for the poor visibility to stay."

Per Al himself...
“If you spent six months in it, you’d learn to drive around it.”
 

thehunterooo

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The Mustang has outsold the Camaro for a long time and visibility had nothing to do with it. So I'm not seeing how now all of a sudden it's this huge thing that means woe for GM, lol!! And I've argued this before, sales by itself means nothing. It's like looking at someone's income and making a determination of them without knowing their debt. The Camaro doesn't sell as well. But without knowing how much it costs to build them and the expenses and factoring that in against how much it brings in with sales this all just becomes assumption. because in all honesty, the Camaro might sell enough that at the end of the day it is bringing in just as much money as the Mustang is. Kinda like, one guy can sell 100 items for $1 each while another guy sells 50 items for $2 each. You can talk about how much more you sold over him. But end of the day you both brought home $100. Without a breakdown of everything involved every statement based on sales is speculative.
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