Sponsored

2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

4V Mayhem

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Threads
9
Messages
1,368
Reaction score
528
Location
US
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GT Premium M6
That is only if you look at MSRP.

The reality is that you can buy Z51 Vettes and Grand Sports Vettes all day, without any drama, and with substantial discounts from MSRP.

Buying a GT350-R is a drama fest. You have to deal with the "it's special", "it's limited production", "it has dealer mark up".

In fact, the GT350-R is second only to the Ford GT in the buying drama department.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeexactly.

Price at dealerships vary. It’s simply about what people are WILLING to pay for the car. Just means there is greater demand for the mustang than the corvette. But ultimately, dealer prices vary greatly. You can find GT350s in the high 40s just like you can find corvettes in the high 40s. MSRP is the only standard, as that’s the price the manufacturer intends to sell the vehicle at. Anything above or below that is just the beauty of capitalism at work
As far as markups are concerned, I noticed that they started to diminish after the H2H. And I haven't seen much of them lately. People paid those prices because they thought it would be an investment. But now the used price values are less than MSRP at this point. And people are trying to sell them fast because the GT500 is coming. Are people going to get even $70K for a used 1-2 year old GT350R when the GT500 is coming out and will probably MSRP at $70K-$75K? And when there are Demons, ZL1 1LEs, (upcoming) ZR1s, and more? Doubtful. Dealerships recently have been showing more of a down to Earth attitude about moving those Shelbys out.
Sponsored

 

millhouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2016
Threads
18
Messages
2,652
Reaction score
1,216
Location
Simpsonville SC
Vehicle(s)
2016 Ruby Red GT PP
Dropping like a rock? Where? You're seeing used prices. Or you're seeing prices with every possible rebate applied...like if you're an ex-military/single mom/college grad customer who also is trading in a Mustang or Challenger (conquest rebate) while also trading in a Camaro (loyalty rebate). If all of those apply to one single person then yes you could get the price dropped like a rock. LOL!! For the record, used prices of the Shelby, Hellcat, and ZL1 are all in the same range.
According to guys over at camaro 6g, ZL1s can regularly be had with discounts in the $5k to $10k range. Hell, Koons has MY18s with $8K in discounts.

As for used, I've seen low mileage used ZL1s going for as low as $45k.
 

ALUSA

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Threads
9
Messages
558
Reaction score
179
Location
Plainfield, IL
First Name
AL
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GTPP, 2017 Cadillac CTS 2.0T AWD
According to guys over at camaro 6g, ZL1s can regularly be had with discounts in the $5k to $10k range. Hell, Koons has MY18s with $8K in discounts.

As for used, I've seen low mileage used ZL1s going for as low as $45k.
No way! Please upload the sales link here. Low milage ZL1 for $45 grand? Even in the Chicago area I couldn’t find one less than 52 g’s. There is a ZO6 corvette however with ZO7 package but automatic 2016 model with 5900 miles on the odo 256 miles away from me on sale for 58 grand!
 

millhouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2016
Threads
18
Messages
2,652
Reaction score
1,216
Location
Simpsonville SC
Vehicle(s)
2016 Ruby Red GT PP
No way! Please upload the sales link here. Low milage ZL1 for $45 grand? Even in the Chicago area I couldn’t find one less than 52 g’s. There is a ZO6 corvette however with ZO7 package but automatic 2016 model with 5900 miles on the odo 256 miles away from me on sale for 58 grand!
Can't find the other one right now...will look for it. This one is a bit more, but still under $50k with less than 10k miles.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/718082039/overview/
 

4V Mayhem

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Threads
9
Messages
1,368
Reaction score
528
Location
US
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GT Premium M6
According to guys over at camaro 6g, ZL1s can regularly be had with discounts in the $5k to $10k range. Hell, Koons has MY18s with $8K in discounts.

As for used, I've seen low mileage used ZL1s going for as low as $45k.
$5K in REBATES can be a $2K conquest rebate with a $1K loyalty rebate and a military and/or college rebate added in. So I can see $5K. Ford has similar rebates as well that can all be stacked together. $10K is a bit of a stretch tho. I'm not seeing that. And rebates are not the same as a price slash. You mentioned the lower prices and made the implication that they are not selling and the prices have to be lowered. If that wasn't your intent then I read it incorrectly. But then again that would mean you're wrong since like I said, a rebate is just a rebate which all manufacturers have.
Can't find the other one right now...will look for it. This one is a bit more, but still under $50k with less than 10k miles.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/718082039/overview/
That is $49K, not $45K. In fact it is $49,900 which you might as well say is $50K. Why you chose to say "$45K" in relation to this sale is a bit on the severely biased side of things. And that is a M6 ZL1 with 8K miles and no options (nav, PDR, CF exposed hood insert, sunroof, battery charger, etc). It is priced accordingly. And it certainly isn't indicative of them not selling. The original MSRP was like $61K brand new with no options.
 

Sponsored

ALUSA

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Threads
9
Messages
558
Reaction score
179
Location
Plainfield, IL
First Name
AL
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GTPP, 2017 Cadillac CTS 2.0T AWD

Baron95

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Threads
3
Messages
262
Reaction score
73
Location
CT
Vehicle(s)
2012 Mustang GT
Eeeeeeeeeeeeexactly.... MSRP is the only standard, as that’s the price the manufacturer intends to sell the vehicle at. Anything above or below that is just the beauty of capitalism at work
I don't know what world you live in.

I could care less what the asking or MSRP for a car, a house or a hooker is.

I, and everyone else that I know, transact in prevailing or market prices.

Ford seems to encourage the buying drama by doing limited production runs of the Boss 302, GT350, etc. It is a business decision to artificially throttle supply and to encourage dealers to mark it up.

Nothing wrong with it. They use those things as bait to build buzz.

I simply choose not to participate. I choose to take advantage of manufacturers producing to or slightly above demand making lots of opportunities available for good deals.


P.S. You are right. Most markets are local. I happen to live within 2 an 1/2 hr drive to the #1 (Kerbeck) and #2 (MacMulkin) volume/discount Corvette dealers. I can pick up a Corvette any time, at great discounts, with zero drama for either of them. If you are in California the picture would be different.
 

Baron95

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Threads
3
Messages
262
Reaction score
73
Location
CT
Vehicle(s)
2012 Mustang GT
I wouldn't make that bet if I were you. I agree with a lot of things you say and you seem like a really smart dude. But the ZR1 beating the Ford GT? Nah man. I think it's just a matter of how bad or good the ZR1 loses. Or how well it keeps up.

No offense and I'm not trying to bang heads with you but come on man. that was a bit harsh and unnecessary.
Lets look at the relevant data, shall we?

Motor Trend just tested the Ford GT at Willow Springs. The first one broke down. Ford sent a second one.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/gt/2017/2017-ford-gt-first-test-review/

-> It was slower than the Z06 on the figure 8 (and only 0.2s faster than the Camaro SS1LE)
-> Pulled less Gs than the Z06 on the skid pad.
-> Was only slightly faster than the Z06 at Big Willow (by 1.31s on 2.6mi track)


I will say it again. The ZR1 will very likely be faster than the Ford GT.

Does that change your assessment?
Screen Shot 2018-01-23 at 11.48.15 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2018-01-23 at 11.50.59 PM.jpg
 
Last edited:

Baron95

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Threads
3
Messages
262
Reaction score
73
Location
CT
Vehicle(s)
2012 Mustang GT
^^^^Ok go buy your zr1 then. You'll look so cool in that thing.
Missing the point much?

The point is that Ford's all out $453,750 supercar, is running basically neck and neck with GM's $90K Z06, and will most likely be beaten solidly by GM's $125K ZR1.

It is a solid indication of the track performance gap between the two companies. Nothing more, nothing less. Just one more data point.





I have no interest in either car. Both are too showy and expensive for my tastes of practical appliances to do a job.
 

4V Mayhem

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Threads
9
Messages
1,368
Reaction score
528
Location
US
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GT Premium M6
Finally you said something useful. Now I know where to shop for a Corvette when I'm your age and need a Corvette to feel young again. $57k for a Grand sport?!

BTW anyone that pays $125k for a dime a dozen Corvette is crazy. Like others have said about a Mustang, most people won't be able to tell the difference between a ZR1 and a z51 package besides the Fast and the Furious body kit.

Go buy your 1LE and let us know how bad ass it is.
Corvette ZR1 is "dime a dozen"?? Never heard that before. Some people paid over $100K for a GT350R and it is nowhere even close to the performance of cars that MSRP at that price. At $125K and with 755HP, if the ZR1 handles better than the Z06 and if it has similar options and comforts then it will be well worth the price tag.
 

Sponsored

jake_zx2

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2016
Threads
11
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
1,418
Location
Texas
Vehicle(s)
Kona Blue 2018 GT
Vehicle Showcase
1
I don't think you quite understand how lap times work... So, the Viper ACR is A LOT faster on track than the Z06 (On Nurburgring, a whole 13 seconds) and that's only .2 seconds faster than the Z06 at VIR, whereas the Ford GT is a full 1.6 seconds faster than the Z06 (And faster than a Porsche 918, I might add). The thing with the ZR1 is that there aren't really that many significant differences... it has some more power, but also has some more weight. It has some additional aero, but nothing really groundbreaking (That wing will definitely be effective, but there really isn't all that much more over the Z06). And the tires are the same with a little bit of width added. If you really think it'll go from running with the Ferrari 488 to beating hypercars with just a marginally better power/weight and a wing, then you simply don't understand track data (which is quite apparent, as you're using skidpad numbers to claim superior track prowess)
 

4V Mayhem

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 20, 2016
Threads
9
Messages
1,368
Reaction score
528
Location
US
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GT Premium M6
The people that bought R's for investments are crazy too. I also think it's funny when they try to resell at over MSRP.

If someone is willing to spend $125k for a ZR1 then there's better choices for not much more money. If you're that rich, what's an extra $50k for a 911 Turbo or an Audi R8? Hell a Huracan starts at $200k. Even if all those cars are slower than that ugly ZR1 around a track do you think anyone would actually pick the Corvette over them?
Not necessarily. That's like saying that someone who buys a base model GT can afford another $5,000. Plus, how do you know that the people who are in the market for a ZR1 would actually wanna spend another $50 on a car they don't like? BTW, buying a $125,000 car doesn't mean you're exactly rich. Anyway the point is that at the price of the ZR1 you aren't going to find anything that can hang with it. And the fact is that the ZR1 is not a dime a dozen. If it comes with those extreme performance capabilities and all the creature comforts of the 3LZ Z06 then that is one hell of a deal for one hell of an awesome car. You don't have to personally like the car. But it is an awesome car. The ZR1 is going to destroy a lot of cars out there.
 

jake_zx2

Banned
Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 19, 2016
Threads
11
Messages
2,305
Reaction score
1,418
Location
Texas
Vehicle(s)
Kona Blue 2018 GT
Vehicle Showcase
1
I will say, strictly based on performance per dollar, the ZR1 (though it may not be faster, per se) will be the better performance value. However, the people spending half a million bucks on a car don't only care about performance. They want it to be elegant, they want it to be engaging, and they want it to be premium. The Ford GT checks all those boxes. The ZR1? Not quite. doesn't make it any less of a performance car, simply makes sense of why the Ford GT costs so much more
 

millhouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2016
Threads
18
Messages
2,652
Reaction score
1,216
Location
Simpsonville SC
Vehicle(s)
2016 Ruby Red GT PP
$5K in REBATES can be a $2K conquest rebate with a $1K loyalty rebate and a military and/or college rebate added in. So I can see $5K. Ford has similar rebates as well that can all be stacked together. $10K is a bit of a stretch tho. I'm not seeing that. And rebates are not the same as a price slash. You mentioned the lower prices and made the implication that they are not selling and the prices have to be lowered. If that wasn't your intent then I read it incorrectly. But then again that would mean you're wrong since like I said, a rebate is just a rebate which all manufacturers have. .
Man, you’re trying so hard to win. I don’t care what you want to call it…discount, rebate, a steaming pile of shit. If I have the ability to walk into a dealer and get $8k-$10k off of a vehicle…the price is inherently lower. Don’t credit me for this, I got this pricing information from actual camaro owners.

And by the way, Koons Wow pricing does not include military or college rebates.

That is $49K, not $45K. In fact it is $49,900 which you might as well say is $50K. Why you chose to say "$45K" in relation to this sale is a bit on the severely biased side of things. And that is a M6 ZL1 with 8K miles and no options (nav, PDR, CF exposed hood insert, sunroof, battery charger, etc). It is priced accordingly. And it certainly isn't indicative of them not selling. The original MSRP was like $61K brand new with no options.
And yet, $49,900 is not $50k. If you want to go down that road, we can revisit the GT350R’s 0.4 second track deficit against the ZL1.

As for the $45k car, it’s gone. It was obviously a deal (had 15k miles), as it’s no longer listed.

No one is saying they aren’t selling, but the pricing is certainly indicative of them not holding their prices.

Lets look at the relevant data, shall we?

Motor Trend just tested the Ford GT at Willow Springs. The first one broke down. Ford sent a second one.

-> It was slower than the Z06 on the figure 8 (and only 0.2s faster than the Camaro SS1LE)
-> Pulled less Gs than the Z06 on the skid pad.
-> Was only slightly faster than the Z06 at Big Willow (by 1.31s on 2.6mi track)[/B]
The same Z06 that Mototrend had to retest because the rear end was out of alignment? The same Z06 that starts to overheat after 1 lap?

Man, I love it when chevy guys claim wins on figure 8’s and skidpads. So foolish, yet so entertaining. Again, thanks for the laugh.

Oh, and 1.31 seconds is by no means "slightly" faster. And considering the Z06 overheats after 1 lap, that margin would grow tremendously.

I will say it again. The ZR1 will very likely be faster than the Ford GT.

Does that change your assessment?
And even if that holds true, the GT will continue to appreciate while the ZR1 value will drop like a rock. That’s the funny thing about real supercars…a great deal of them hold their value (or increase in value).
 

ALUSA

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2017
Threads
9
Messages
558
Reaction score
179
Location
Plainfield, IL
First Name
AL
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GTPP, 2017 Cadillac CTS 2.0T AWD
I do agree that the ZR1 will most likely beat a Ford GT in almost every performance aspect, however, Ford GT is a special limited production and collector's car. I heard Ford will bump the production from 500 to 1000 cars. Even then, it will be a very limited and even though the price is so high people will still buy it. Purchasing a Ford GT has nothing to do with how much performance you are getting for the money. It is more like, I am super rich and in love with this car, so I don't give a damn. It is a collector's car indeed.
Sponsored

 
 




Top