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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

jake_zx2

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Ford needs a hardcore track package though. All that matters is stock performance on magazines. People are dying over this.
Magazines being all that matters is the reason why PP2 is important... it'll put down the lap times to look cool, but in the real world, it won't hang for prolonged periods. However, people who care so much about magazine times that it convinces them to buy a car probably aren't the people who will be REALLY taking it to the track, so PP2 is perfect for them.

and if people were really dying over this, Camaro sales wouldn't be drastically lower than mustang sales
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jake_zx2

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I agree with a lot of what you said in your post, but engine torque is meaningless with respect to performance.
Torque means something for about the first 200ft of a drag race, and even at that, can be somewhat corrected with gearing
 

Syphon23

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I get it. You are choosing to drive a 2008 model, but come on here and talk about newer stuff that performs a lot better.

I'm plenty happy with the performance vs. street manners of my GT350.
No real reason to upgrade. My 08 LS3 still is out preforming the new SS and GTs. For the $26K I payed for it and $1800 in mods Im running 11.7-11.8s. I always wanted a Corvette and the C6 was my fav. The new C7s are great but didnt wanna spend 50k. For the 28k I have into my car, its faster and looks better than the C7s to me. I was shopping the 6th Gen SS and new GTs but performance per dollar led me back to the C6. To get a well spec'd GT/SS now a days is 40k+ new and 33Kish used. I liked the C6 looks more and was much cheaper so I went with that.
 

TheLion

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I agree with a lot of what you said in your post, but engine torque is meaningless with respect to performance.
Right, I wasn't implying that, I was implying the large torque curve creates a nice power band. 50 ft-lbs of torque advantage across the board results in a substantially broader power band than what the Port injected gen 2 coyote can manage in stock form.

Now the nice thing about Ford is that you get a factory upgrade path that usually brings the previous gen reasonably close to the latest gen. But the new 5.0 with DI is pretty darn good. It makes 400+ whp by 5500 RPM and holds that really far out. Although LMR only went out to 6500 (probably speed limited), I'd imagine it holds that power close to red-line based on the torque plot slope: https://lmr.com/products/first-2018-mustang-gt-dyno

2018's should easily be neck and neck with the new gen 6 SS if not a bit ahead. They trade blows as always, Ford bested the Camaro in straight line performance with the last iteration of the S197's, but was behind on the track due to the chassis. Then the S550 came out in 2014 and bested the 2014/2015 Camaro. Then GM released their gen 6 late 2015 and bested the S550. Now Ford is releasing an updated S550 to beat the first iteration of the gen 6 Camaro....it will never end lol. Although I do not believe the second iteration of the gen 6 Camaro will see anywhere near as much gains as the jump from gen 5 to gen 6 because they already tapped into those resources. It's more of a minor refinement.

But first gen S550's are really cheap now and great cars at their price point, probably one of the best values out there. I paid 27,750 + about 2k taxes and title (which every one has to pay) on a car with only 5,500 miles on it, after market Corsa Sport Cat Back exhaust and window tint

It's really kind of dumb to say the "Camaro is the faster car" because which Camaro are we talking about? The first iteration of the S550 is as fast or faster than, just about every standard version of the SS to hit the streets since it came back into production until the latest 2016's...GM just got lucky with the gen 6 because they took the engine from the Corvett and the Chassis from the Caddy where Ford has to do everything from the ground up, but the 2018 GT puts the Mustang back on par if not a bit ahead.
 

Baron95

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So at first you claim you never said it's unsafe at speed, but later on you say it's less safe at speed.
Exactly. Safety is never a binary thing. Safe or unsafe. Certain features of cars can make them safer or less safe.

Adding downforce/reducing lift, all things being equal, makes cars safer at high speed. But it typically reduces Vmax and acceleration at high speed.

Similarly, adding wider, stickier tires typically makes car handle better and makes them safer, but again reduce vmax and acceleration at speed.

So the regular Camaro SS will accelerate faster above 120MPH and have a higher Vmax than the 1LE for the above reasons.

Similarly, when Ford adds proper downforce and stickier tires to the Mustang with PP2, it too will have a lower Vmax and accelerate more slowly above 120MPH than the PP1.

Every thinking person with basic physics knowledge knows this. Not sure you it causes so much consternation for the Mustang crowd.
 
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Baron95

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The GM costs nearly $4500 more
Ugh, no. As tested by MT the Mustang (without Recaros, without video performance data recorder, without rear brembos, etc) was Ëś$4,000 more than "the GM".


The magnetic dampers are a huge advantage over the first gen S550's because they can adjust ride height and compress the springs for a higher damping rate for track applications, giving it a substantial track advantage over a traditional suspension setup that the first gen S550's used.
Ugh, no. As tested by MT the 2018 PP1 was exactly 0.32s faster than the previous gen S550 PP around Willows. To achieve that, they threw in much better tires (PS 4S), their so called "wing", a lot more power, a ton of chassis bracing, better/stiffer shocks and springs, and yes the "magnetic dampers" that you claimed gave it a "huge advantage" on track.
 

millhouse

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Every thinking person with basic physics knowledge knows this. Not sure you it causes so much consternation for the Mustang crowd.
And changing gearing can drastically affect acceleration at speed. You are (incorrectly) inferring that mustang is unsafe at speed based off incomplete data.

Is the down-force difference responsible for the high speed acceleration difference? It could be, but it's also possible that the gearing difference is the main factor. You are assuming that it's the former without even considering the (strong) possibility that it's actually the latter. To top it off, you are making absurd assumptions that because you guess it's the former, that the mustang must then be unsafe.
 

Hack

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Torque means something for about the first 200ft of a drag race, and even at that, can be somewhat corrected with gearing
Torque at the wheels is everything and yes torque at the wheels is a product of engine torque and gearing.

An engine provides certain amount of horsepower and torque. You can’t exceed that value without any engine modification. The gearing can only modulate the torque to the wheels. Torque indeed is what actually accerates the car. That is why the area under the torque curve is really important. Horsepower comes into play to resist wind drag and frictional forces which affects the top speed applications. A car can have a lower overall torque curve but higher top end (high rpm) horsepower and after a while still be able pass another car with higher torque curve but lower top end horsepower. You are not hitting those speeds in 200 ft (0.03 miles). You are not even hitting those speeds in the quarter mile either according to MT’s test.
Torque at the wheels is what accelerates a car. Engine horsepower provides an indication of how much torque could be available at the wheels through gearing.

The shorter the race, the more the tire size and grip comes into play. The Mustang has plenty of power to spin the tires, the problem is the tires just don't have enough grip to accelerate the car more quickly. The performance difference in 0-60 and 1/4 mile have the most to do with tire grip. That's why the Mustang is catching the Camaro quickly at the end of the quarter mile. At higher mph the tires have enough grip to use all of the engine's power output. At low speed the engine output has to be reduced to prevent wheel spin. The Camaro launches more quickly mainly because the tires are stickier. Swap tires on the Mustang and you will improve it significantly. Yes I agree aero makes a difference as well. I don't know how much of a brick the Camaro is, though.
 

Hack

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No real reason to upgrade. My 08 LS3 still is out preforming the new SS and GTs. For the $26K I payed for it and $1800 in mods Im running 11.7-11.8s. I always wanted a Corvette and the C6 was my fav. The new C7s are great but didnt wanna spend 50k. For the 28k I have into my car, its faster and looks better than the C7s to me. I was shopping the 6th Gen SS and new GTs but performance per dollar led me back to the C6. To get a well spec'd GT/SS now a days is 40k+ new and 33Kish used. I liked the C6 looks more and was much cheaper so I went with that.
I agree that what you have is a good performance value. I understand why you haven't upgraded to the newer cars, especially if you think your car is better looking than the C7. The newer Corvettes have improved in many ways but they also cost a lot more. Sometimes the older models are preferable.
 

02gtnh

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And changing gearing can drastically affect acceleration at speed. You are (incorrectly) inferring that mustang is unsafe at speed based off incomplete data.

Is the down-force difference responsible for the high speed acceleration difference? It could be, but it's also possible that the gearing difference is the main factor. You are assuming that it's the former without even considering the (strong) possibility that it's actually the latter. To top it off, you are making absurd assumptions that because you guess it's the former, that the mustang must then be unsafe.
My guess gearing is also a reason. The both have 3:73 gears, but the tires on the GT are 1/2” taller then the SS. So it will be geared a little taller for top speed.:cheers:
 

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TheLion

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Ugh, no. As tested by MT the Mustang (without Recaros, without video performance data recorder, without rear brembos, etc) was Ëś$4,000 more than "the GM".




Ugh, no. As tested by MT the 2018 PP1 was exactly 0.32s faster than the previous gen S550 PP around Willows. To achieve that, they threw in much better tires (PS 4S), their so called "wing", a lot more power, a ton of chassis bracing, better/stiffer shocks and springs, and yes the "magnetic dampers" that you claimed gave it a "huge advantage" on track.
As tested by C&D their 2016 1SS was $45,580 and weighed in at 3718 lbs. As tested by C&D their 2016 PP GT was $41,290 and weighed in at 3782 lbs (which is from the K-brace which I weighed myself at 17 lbs, the PP wheels which add 38 lbs over base also weighed in my garage and the larger brembos up front, couple pounds). That's a difference of only 64 lbs and that's comparing the lightest Camaro chassis. Go back just 2 years to the 2015 and the story is completely different. Or go up to the 2018 GT and it's also very different.

Price difference is exactly $4,290 from the source I was referencing. You can do some pretty decent modding for $4,200....regarding willow springs, Edumds did a a JDRF Track day fundraiser event with a 2015 PP GT and had very different things to say about the cars actual handling on the track. Most of what was there were Porches, Ferraries, a few Z06 Vetts. The PP GT did surprisingly well in their track day against some much more expensive cars. Could it be the driver? Absolutely. Maybe the driver actually understood the car's chassis setup and utilized it to it's potential instead of complaining about this characteristic or that. There's no magic in chassis tuning, there's only tuning to the track / application.

Chassis tuning is to a significant degree dependent on the particular driver as well. Different driving styles can be used effectively on the same track and different suspension setups facilitate certain styles better than others.

The SS is an easier car to drive in factory form for the average guy, that's the common denominator, doesn't actually meant it's blasingly fast compared to everything else because there's not as much of a learning curve. That's a great attribute to have, but it doesn't mean it's actually the best setup bar none. It's certainly not much lighter in weight. Weight placement is pretty close between the two as well, but the stang has an ever so slightly higher center of gravity and ground clearance, which you can change in the suspension setup and with lower seats for a track car, in fact you'd change all that even on an SS for an actual race application.

When I went to have my EB Stang dynoed, I ran into a guy with a 2014 SS, the pig generation. That thing was stripped down to NOTHING, including the interior. It was not a street legal car, it was a RACE car and it would beat the pants off of any of these street cars even though in it's original form it was worst performer compared to the latest generations. Case in point regarding learning the car, look at the 1/4 mile times as an example (yes, chassis tuning matters there too).

All the review mags can't get better than 12.8~12.9, some even ran as slow as a 13.2 on a PP GT. Yet right here on this forum we have a 12.3 A6 and quite a few 12.5's and 12.6's with the same darn cars (both 6A's and 6M's) bone stock on stock tires. The SS's only tend to run .1~.2 faster than what the mags can achieve. Gen 6 fast list for the manual SS's is 12.1. For the auto it's 11.9. The SS is about .4 seconds faster on the 1/4 mile at it's best, not .7 to 1 second that the magazines state....it makes a little more power and is a tad lighter with less wheel hop so it should be and that's comparing the current gen GT like mine, not the 2018's. That's only 2.5%....for a street car it's meaningless, on a track for fun it's meaningless and good driving can easily compensate or a few mods if you want bragging rights. IF your actually into racing, why not buy a GT4....I'd like to see a GT or SS compete against that...it's a dedicated track car but uses the same chassis as the production S550. It's just highly modified for race applications with all the appropriate bells and whistles, reinforcements etc.

Ford's chassis tuning simply isn't as aggressive out of the box or as easy to drive on a track, but you can get the performance out of it if you learn the car. SS is simply an easier car to drive fast as is for the average guy and has a little more power, but doesn't offer any factory upgrade paths either. You get what you get.

Going after market on either car...sky is the limit. There is no winner. It's just a matter of how much money do you want to throw at it lol. There's Mustang's and Camaro's in the 7's from all years....including the horrendous 80's....the massive inconsistency of the review magazines between themselves and what people can actually achieve in the real world should make you wonder...why bother reading them in the first place. I think in reality they only give you a very small piece of the picture and it wasn't the review mags that gave me a picture of what the mustang really is, it's the forums and people who actually drive them as well as my test drive of the different chassis.
 
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Baron95

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I admire your enthusiast in writing so many paragraphs, but hard to know what point you are trying to make with so many words.

Can you send us the twitter version?
 

thehunterooo

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"Yep LoL! And they are claiming the merritts of 1 mile drag races by saying "Oh well I just like to go fast on the highways!" - Syphon23

There people are fake as hell LOL
 

gt4urass

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I like how I literally said they would most likely be lenient since it was a Ford part, yet you're still just typing away like you've been bred for weaponized autism.

This argument is over. What do you want? You Win! OK. Great. Gold star. Moving on.

Also my hair is beautiful.
Dude...I had to log in just to say that I almost fell over laughing at that.
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