Sideways Shootout (EB/228i/FR-S comparison

[LeonBorden]

Why is autocross even relevant? In autocross, a car is strictly as good as the SCCA allows it to be. It's all about classing. An EBM will turn faster times than a FRS, but an FRS is better because it's only competition in STX are 10 year old cars like the Solstice and RX8.

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[NewSVO]

I dislike it too. I have friends that are obsessed with autox and they praise the toyobaru twins, think its the be all/end all car. I guess they don't care about interior quality, or power.

Even the supercharged ones aren't making notable numbers( from the set-ups I've seen ) most are just slammed to the ground around me or just stock ones that you can hear people are trying hard to go fast on lol

Plus Ford has done a horrendous job at properly marketing the ecoboost, NO ONE that has come up to me or that I have discussed this platform knew that it comes with over 300 hp/tq and are perplexed because they all think it comes with the 1.6 from the Fusion and makes zero power. I can't blame the ignorance since it seems this EB is almost a niche Ford product to gain some import love domestically. I don't mind though:ford:

 

[mizer67]

I'm comparing the FRS to the Ecoboost right now as I try to decide and I will probably compare them to the Camaro as well before making a decision. I can't seriously consider the new 2-series although I liked my 328i E90.

In my opinion, the FRS feels better than the Eco in several ways. Steering is absolutely sublime in comparison; the manual is nicer than on most other cars I've driven and weight and balance feels better as well, as does the engine note. Although neither is terrrific, the FRS clearly sounds better to my ears than the Eco.

The Eco drives/feels much bigger than it is, like a large car and the power on a stock (assuming 87 octane) ~40 mile new car on a couple of test drives was, underwhelming. It feels like a similar power level as the FRS, although this is just SOTP; the Eco is obviously quicker and has much more potential but I felt it needed a tune ASAP to wake it up, even in Sport mode.

The Mustang's hood flutter was evident at virtually any speed and frankly, compared to the FRS the Mustang's steering is numb, particularly on center. Ride quality is about the same on a PP Eco, but to me the Eco feels softer and yet more busy over uneven roads. However, the Mustang's interior is no comparison, even in base form it seems head and shoulders "better" and more comfortable and the road/tire noise is virtually non-existant in comparison, but sadly so are any good noises from the drivetrain/exhaust. Fuel economy on my test drives has been poor also, 12.5 mpg for mostly city and 20 mpg for mixed driving vs. mid 20's for the FRS in city driving.

So, in my opinion, the Mustang is a better highway cruiser and daily driver it seems, minus the horrid mileage I've seen so far (I know, it's not fair to compare a brand new car <1,000 miles), since it's more refined, has much more usable space, is quieter and offers a softer, more compliant ride even in PP trim, but I found the FRS more fun to drive even on mostly flat and straight roads, even though it's slow.

Still, the FRS has a lot of compromises that make me question if I could live with it every day, whereas with the Mustang, I don't feel there are as many compromises for a daily driver.

 

[Nitro]

I understand that the twins are not for everybody, but some of you need to be a little more open minded about car culture and being an auto enthusiast. You call yourselves auto enthusiasts, but only care about the numbers and could care less about the visceral feeling you get when driving certain cars. "Who cares if it feels like pure nirvana while behind the wheel, it takes over 14 seconds to run the 1/4." I loved my FRS, just like I loved my Miata. Those cars aren't meant for the dragstrip, that isn't what they are built for. They are made to put a smile on your face in a different way.

It is sort of like saying you are a fan of music, even though you only listen to hip hop and say classical or electronic is garbage. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not a fan of music, you are a fan of hip-hop.

Calling the twins "garbage" or "a joke" is just insane. With the exception of power, every single driving dynamic is better in an FR-S. Better seating position, better shifter, better steering feel, better balance, better pedal position, faster steering rack...ect. Is the Mustang a better everyday driver? You bet your ass it is. Is it a better overall package? Probably. Is it more fun to drive? Not to me, and not to a lot of people, including the author of this article. Don't get your panties in a bunch because somebody thinks a car with 200 horsepower is more fun to drive than the car you chose.

 

[Rogues Gambit]

If I was married and my wife didn't know how to drive stick, I'd get her a twin since it'd be a good fun car to learn on while not being too powerful, then I'd do bolt one's

I had fun in the FRS I drove, but since I need a new DD, its gonna be the Stang

 

[Tamadrummer88]

I understand that the twins are not for everybody, but some of you need to be a little more open minded about car culture and being an auto enthusiast. You call yourselves auto enthusiasts, but only care about the numbers and could care less about the visceral feeling you get when driving certain cars. "Who cares if it feels like pure nirvana while behind the wheel, it takes over 14 seconds to run the 1/4." I loved my FRS, just like I loved my Miata. Those cars aren't meant for the dragstrip, that isn't what they are built for. They are made to put a smile on your face in a different way.

It is sort of like saying you are a fan of music, even though you only listen to hip hop and say classical or electronic is garbage. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not a fan of music, you are a fan of hip-hop.

Calling the twins "garbage" or "a joke" is just insane. With the exception of power, every single driving dynamic is better in an FR-S. Better seating position, better shifter, better steering feel, better balance, better pedal position, faster steering rack...ect. Is the Mustang a better everyday driver? You bet your ass it is. Is it a better overall package? Probably. Is it more fun to drive? Not to me, and not to a lot of people, including the author of this article. Don't get your panties in a bunch because somebody thinks a car with 200 horsepower is more fun to drive than the car you chose.

They are not garbage, and i understand that the cars cater to a niche market thats not for everyone. What gets me the most is the fact that Toyota/Subaru will NOT listen to their customers and magazines when they say that the car needs more power to be competitive, or the interior quality needs to be stepped up in order to remain competitive in this market. The twins are up against some heavy competition (EcoBoost Mustang, Genesis Coupe, Camaro V6 and turbo 4, etc) and those cars are offering excellent performance while still being loaded on features for the same price as a fully loaded BR-Z. Hell, you could get a Premium EcoBoost with no options for the same price as a fully loaded BR-Z. Its not about the driving experience or the handling, today its all about how many features you can pack into a car for the least amount, and sadly, the FR-S and BR-Z fall short.

 

[OppoLock]

They are not garbage, and i understand that the cars cater to a niche market thats not for everyone. What gets me the most is the fact that Toyota/Subaru will NOT listen to their customers and magazines when they say that the car needs more power to be competitive, or the interior quality needs to be stepped up in order to remain competitive in this market. The twins are up against some heavy competition (EcoBoost Mustang, Genesis Coupe, Camaro V6 and turbo 4, etc) and those cars are offering excellent performance while still being loaded on features for the same price as a fully loaded BR-Z. Hell, you could get a Premium EcoBoost with no options for the same price as a fully loaded BR-Z. Its not about the driving experience or the handling, today its all about how many features you can pack into a car for the least amount, and sadly, the FR-S and BR-Z fall short.

I was so close to buying a BRZ. Loved everything about it except for the mill. Didn't mind the interior; thought it was functional and it had some decent materials covering common touch points. But I wasn't impressed with the forum community nor the lack of support. I had a build list drafted and everything but it just seemed like a lot of work to make it what I wanted it to be.

The idea of accessible oversteer and low inertia fun was really appealing but I knew that the lack of power would bug the hell out of me. Not enough low speed twisters in my area to justify its purchase. The lack of a high powered variant bothered the hell out of me. Ever since I got my GT, I've been happy as can be and haven't paid mind to the GT86 twins. Still think they're great cars though. You've just got to be in an environment that would let you take advantage of their strengths.

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Scratch getting the future misses a twin, gonna get her a Miata

 

[mizer67]

Its not about the driving experience or the handling, today its all about how many features you can pack into a car for the least amount, and sadly, the FR-S and BR-Z fall short.

This is what is wrong with nearly every new car made. Almost none of the "sports" cars made are fun to drive, even if they're faster/quicker than anything before.

Unfortunately, I'm probably in the minority that feel this way judging by sales numbers of more focused driver's cars.

 

[dragonacc]

This is what is wrong with nearly every new car made. Almost none of the "sports" cars made are fun to drive, even if they're faster/quicker than anything before.

Unfortunately, I'm probably in the minority that feel this way judging by sales numbers of more focused driver's cars.

I think they just missed a chance to make something really cool when they designed those cars. They could have dropped in the WRX engine (brakes and whatever else is necessary to handle the power) and it would have been a cool ride. I know a lot of people that love the WRX but hate the hatchback/sedan body style.

 

[04SloSnake]

I understand that the twins are not for everybody, but some of you need to be a little more open minded about car culture and being an auto enthusiast. You call yourselves auto enthusiasts, but only care about the numbers and could care less about the visceral feeling you get when driving certain cars. "Who cares if it feels like pure nirvana while behind the wheel, it takes over 14 seconds to run the 1/4." I loved my FRS, just like I loved my Miata. Those cars aren't meant for the dragstrip, that isn't what they are built for. They are made to put a smile on your face in a different way.

It is sort of like saying you are a fan of music, even though you only listen to hip hop and say classical or electronic is garbage. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not a fan of music, you are a fan of hip-hop.

Calling the twins "garbage" or "a joke" is just insane. With the exception of power, every single driving dynamic is better in an FR-S. Better seating position, better shifter, better steering feel, better balance, better pedal position, faster steering rack...ect. Is the Mustang a better everyday driver? You bet your ass it is. Is it a better overall package? Probably. Is it more fun to drive? Not to me, and not to a lot of people, including the author of this article. Don't get your panties in a bunch because somebody thinks a car with 200 horsepower is more fun to drive than the car you chose.

I get this completely, and so does every other VW enthusiast. For me driving a GTI, especially a VR6, just feels right. This is why I'm planning on adding a MKIII VR6 after I finally narrow down my daily driver selection.

 

[belleg]

I wanted a FRS/BRZ until I drove one. Its just wayyyy to underpowered... MiniVan's, soccer mom Suv's, and base model econoboxes will walk you. The sales guy kept saying it pulls nice at high rpm and still plenty powerfull... lol. After I read up on forums that with bolt on's 14's are possible I laughed and was going to spend big cash on my 4th gen Z28 instead of buying some new POS until, the 6g mustang was announced.

Similar here... I am a big euro cars guy (used to make fun of american cars) - had BMW 320i and 330i and really liked them, then Subbie (hate that car). Last year went to test the BRZ after reading hundreds of reviews. I drove it for about 30 minutes and was feeling completely underwhelmed... Knowing the dealer, I asked to have the car a few more hours (I thought something was wrong with me)... took it to some back roads (with a friend owning RX8) and both of us tried to have fun in it... well, I can say one thing - I was bored, there was no drama, no emotion, nothing... I was on the fence between 335i and EB, test drove the EB and fell in love (my friend still doesn't like the extra weight). driven about 1k miles in the EB and I love it even more - I started taking longer routes on my way back from work just to drive it.

 

[smdandb2]

I think they just missed a chance to make something really cool when they designed those cars. They could have dropped in the WRX engine (brakes and whatever else is necessary to handle the power) and it would have been a cool ride. I know a lot of people that love the WRX but hate the hatchback/sedan body style.

Unfortunately there will never be a turbocharged variant from either manufacturer.

The FR-S outsells the BRZ 8 to 1. Subaru won't turbocharge the BRZ because it will completely cannibalize the WRX and STi sales. And Toyota wont do any FI because I believe they said it would upset the characteristics of the car.

 

[dragonacc]

Unfortunately there will never be a turbocharged variant from either manufacturer.

The FR-S outsells the BRZ 8 to 1. Subaru won't turbocharge the BRZ because it will completely cannibalize the WRX and STi sales. And Toyota wont do any FI because I believe they said it would upset the characteristics of the car.

I don't know that it would be that bad for WRX sales, RWD vs AWD, etc. I don't know why anyone would buy a STI until Subaru replaces the tired old EJ25.

 

[Rogues Gambit]

Unfortunately there will never be a turbocharged variant from either manufacturer.

The FR-S outsells the BRZ 8 to 1. Subaru won't turbocharge the BRZ because it will completely cannibalize the WRX and STi sales. And Toyota wont do any FI because I believe they said it would upset the characteristics of the car.

They could always up the power, get rid of the weird curve, add a wrx package (brakes, tires, hood scoop, quad tip exhaust, etc.) And offer something to better the interior, problem briefly solved

Needs what, a good 40hp at least? Honda did it with the 1st gen S2K, can't be too hard for the twins to be near 240/170ish?

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