Stock Rod Limit

[Herr_Poopschitz]

I do apologize, but I have a problem with leaving anything negative open.

Ditto. Character flaw. Just ask my ex.

Sponsored

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showpost.php?p=571948&postcount=201
Comments, observations, opinions?

A "RaceGas additive" and actual race fuel are 2 VERY different things.

There have been several vendors that have outfitted the S550 with big turbo kits months ago, that is nothing new. But the issue still remains that the engine is out of fuel. If this was not the case why is it that it took a gutted car, race fuel, slicks and skinnies, a 3.73 gears (which are not even available on this car), a huge turbo and Lord only knows what else along with no intake or exhaust to beat our 11.8 run with a car that was minus a seat, intake, STOCK DP, MS109 and slicks and skinnies? Tuning. There were several very large vendors that inquired about us tuning their builds way back before and at the PRI show. We respectfully have declined as we do not even have room for all of the manufacturer and client work that we have at the moment. At night every bit of our 36k sq ft facility is utilized as a parking lot.

 

[Renner]

You didn't say anything about metallurgy data, you simply said the top ringland was too high and the skirts were too thin. I was showing you that I didn't agree on your statement and why. However I did mention that the piston design in certain other areas wasn't meant for high boost it was intended for exactly what I said in my post emissions and concentrated burn.

You say "This is what happens when you are a company that specializes in import turbo motors". If only we did just that, if only. You must of missed our multiple 1000hp+ LS builds, our Coyote Twin Turbo Kit, and any pictures of our shop that show the lack of turbo 4 cyl's lately. We do specialize in a lot of areas and we do a lot of private builds, and the past few years have been less and less "import turbo motors". So, if you could accurately describe our company that would be swell, its not that hard its the name of the company; Modern Automotive Performance. Not Import Turbo Engine Performance.

New to the platform, I give you that. However, new to engine dynamics and calibration far from. I mean, everyone is new to a platform at one point, but it's not hard to take your previous engine experience and the theory of how something works and implement it to something new. If I don't have the answer I will take the appropriate steps to find the answers. Then show the process in which I used to develop a solution or answer to a problem. I think that is the main difference between being new to a platform and someone that can say "nobody else offers more support" for a platform. People will just believe whatever that company says because they think they have the answers, where I have to prove why my conclusions and products are possibly the best choice. This seems to be working out just fine just ask the many customers that "entrust" us to enhance their vehicle experience.

Now that I have wasted another post space with text that is clearly not contributing to the topic at hand I will bid this thread farewell.

BOOM!!!!...in the face of liverchops!!

I am glad I am using MAP products

 

[LeonBorden]

If the motor is breaking with the stock baby turbo...why put a larger more powerful one on?

This comment alone speaks volumes. Comical that a tuning company who claims to know turbo applications would say this.:lol:

 

[jbailer]

Thanks!

I've mostly been watching to learn. I'm a V8/SC guy, still have my 06 pushing 480hp/450tq that I could only do safely by going to forums and reading threads like this. My EBM is my daily driver. I need to keep it reliable, good on gas and FUN!

HUGE Thanks to Brad for starting this thread, sharing his findings AND for his patience. I know you were hoping that we could keep this civil but you had to know vendors would have to do their chest bumping and then their fan boys have to jump in. To be honest even though on the surface it seems destructive, that's when they flex their muscles and break out data to prove their points. I've learned SO much from this thread so thanks for not shutting it down. Thanks to all the members that have added meaningful information (too many to count), it all helps!

Brad started this thread saying he lost a rod at ~420 to (sorry if I mis-quote or get exact details wrong). Later we learned he was running as high as 470 to if I remember correctly. The point was to alert us and we could start understanding safe limits on the stock LB. he then said,

No one has come in and had a discussion about making 450+ ft/lbs of torque on the stock bottom end. I haven't seen anyone else push over 450 Ft/lbs either. I put my engine at jeopardy not a customers and I did this so we would know, and it held up for several days abused and finally let go when I had free time on my dyno to see what it was pushing. I was headed to the track with it the next day to find out if I could meet my goal.

I was pushing it stupid hard for a reason. If you read through my posts you will see why.

Far as I can see that is true. I don't really care if someone doesn't like my opinion but I have mad respect for Brad, Jaimie and Adam. I don't care how long one has with an EB or that someone tuned an import. The principles still apply and you don't wake up cranking this much power out of an engine not knowing what you're doing.

Something I learned from Adam and will watch for in whichever tune I end up getting is something I learned early on breaking parts, sudden torque breaks stuff. I like the idea of bringing in the torque a little more gradually but I don't like the curve for the big turbo, mine is not a race car and will not be at redline all the time. I want it to be peppy under light throttle too the way Ford designed it. Not meant to be disrespectful but I want to stay away from a curve like the one that broke the rod, very low RPM, very high immediate tq. I'm no mechanic but looking at that rod and reading Brad's posts, I'm betting that rod was bent on a previous pull and just happened to let go on this pull. It bent and broke rather than shattered the way we heard earlier. I still have a lot of faith in this engine and believe we will work out good safe numbers with it.

Joe

 

[LeonBorden]

I guess I'm the only one more concerned with the head than the bottom end. Bottom end is a weekend rebuild job. Porting the head is a pretty annoying shipping process with downtime.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

A "RaceGas additive" and actual race fuel are 2 VERY different things.

There have been several vendors that have outfitted the S550 with big turbo kits months ago, that is nothing new. But the issue still remains that the engine is out of fuel. If this was not the case why is it that it took a gutted car, race fuel, slicks and skinnies, a 3.73 gears (which are not even available on this car), a huge turbo and Lord only knows what else along with no intake or exhaust to beat our 11.8 run with a car that was minus a seat, intake, STOCK DP, MS109 and slicks and skinnies? Tuning. There were several very large vendors that inquired about us tuning their builds way back before and at the PRI show. We respectfully have declined as we do not even have room for all of the manufacturer and client work that we have at the moment. At night every bit of our 36k sq ft facility is utilized as a parking lot.

I'm glad that business is doing so well. On the other hand, w/ all of the manufacturer support you have, I question why you turn down the opportunity to be the leader in development of what is probably going to be one of the most popular engine platforms in the world in the very near future. I've stated it before, whoever either 'cracks the code', or develops a reasonably priced fueling solution first is going to have more business than they know what to do w/...here and abroad.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

I guess I'm the only one more concerned with the head than the bottom end. Bottom end is a weekend rebuild job. Porting the head is a pretty annoying shipping process with downtime.

You're not. There just haven't been any in-depth threads on the head yet.

 

[BGolden]

I've mostly been watching to learn. I'm a V8/SC guy, still have my 06 pushing 480hp/450tq that I could only do safely by going to forums and reading threads like this. My EBM is my daily driver. I need to keep it reliable, good on gas and FUN!

HUGE Thanks to Brad for starting this thread, sharing his findings AND for his patience. I know you were hoping that we could keep this civil but you had to know vendors would have to do their chest bumping and then their fan boys have to jump in. To be honest even though on the surface it seems destructive, that's when they flex their muscles and break out data to prove their points. I've learned SO much from this thread so thanks for not shutting it down. Thanks to all the members that have added meaningful information (too many to count), it all helps!

Brad started this thread saying he lost a rod at ~420 to (sorry if I mis-quote or get exact details wrong). Later we learned he was running as high as 470 to if I remember correctly. The point was to alert us and we could start understanding safe limits on the stock LB. he then said,



Far as I can see that is true. I don't really care if someone doesn't like my opinion but I have mad respect for Brad, Jaimie and Adam. I don't care how long one has with an EB or that someone tuned an import. The principles still apply and you don't wake up cranking this much power out of an engine not knowing what you're doing.

Something I learned from Adam and will watch for in whichever tune I end up getting is something I learned early on breaking parts, sudden torque breaks stuff. I like the idea of bringing in the torque a little more gradually but I don't like the curve for the big turbo, mine is not a race car and will not be at redline all the time. I want it to be peppy under light throttle too the way Ford designed it. Not meant to be disrespectful but I want to stay away from a curve like the one that broke the rod, very low RPM, very high immediate tq. I'm no mechanic but looking at that rod and reading Brad's posts, I'm betting that rod was bent on a previous pull and just happened to let go on this pull. It bent and broke rather than shattered the way we heard earlier. I still have a lot of faith in this engine and believe we will work out good safe numbers with it.

Joe

Joe,

Thank you and a very nicely worded post.

When I made the first post of this thread I did so in less than 20 min after happening, and I should have waited a little longer and collected more data. I did so as I felt people needed to know our experience to know how far they can go as I do not want to see a forum member with this experience.

As far as the rod goes, it definitely could have been bent on a previous pull, but it was not making any sounds to notify me. The rod is bent, has a slight twist (I missed this part at first), and is broken. I show it to customers all the time and I freely talk about it as I want people to know the limits and modify accordingly. I feel that is the responsibility of the shops and tuners in this position.

I did know I was pushing the limits and walking that line, but I needed to see and know where I could go with the motor. I do believe it has helped the EB Mustang community.

 

[15svo]

If Your wondering so much about fuel and race gas vs race gas additive can you please explain to me
livernois how my stock fuel system and stock turbo made 352/410 with e30 from the pump no custom blend of fuel with a cobb and adam tuning my car.I recall that's the stock whp stock turbo record so stop bashing you competition to make yourself sound better.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I'm glad that business is doing so well. On the other hand, w/ all of the manufacturer support you have, I question why you turn down the opportunity to be the leader in development of what is probably going to be one of the most popular engine platforms in the world in the very near future. I've stated it before, whoever either 'cracks the code', or develops a reasonably priced fueling solution first is going to have more business than they know what to do w/...here and abroad.

The reasoning is simple there are several platforms that are coming in the near future that we cannot infringe upon. Forum conjecture is just that, guessing. There is a solution lying inside of the 2nd gen of the EB platform, but we cannot go over those things or what will solve the problem. The backing that we have is a gift, and a curse.

 

[AngelOreo]

Pardon the uninformed question, but does Ford not release their numbers for the engine specifications and anticipated limits based on the quality of the material and also the engineering used?

All you vendors seem to give us the details of a part we are buying, telling us what the limitations would be if it is an internal part, (rod, Bearings etc), or how much flow we will get if it is a bolt on part such as an intake or Exhaust.

Being new here, I suppose this answer is obvious to many of you, but as someone who is trying to learn about this motor and the limits, I wonder if the answer is as simple as asking Ford?

As mentioned above by Joe, I have learned so much from this thread despite the miscommunications here and there. I appreciate the extra data each one of you provide, and I personally am not over-reading into any of it as an attack. In this line of work, many folks are very passionate about what they do, and even though everyone has a different style or method, you are ALL working towards the goal, which is providing your clients, big or small, with as much detailed information as you possibly can, BASED ON YOUR STYLE, of research. Just because folks do it differently, doesn't mean we can't learn a lot from each of you.

My only reccomendation, would be to reach out to each other over a PM and work through the misccomunications privately, then share your results. So much more can be gained working together. That is not to say you have to share your trade secrects on "Your Style, ", but at least the results of your test, and what you think might be the cause. There is no shame in telling your customer that X company is better at say, a low end tune, versus Y company being better at a Drag Race tune, or a Road&Track tune. I hope that made sense. ADHD is taking over.

I have been on the receiving end of a vendor, non car related, telling me they can not provide the best product for my need, and that I should talk to company X or Y. While the vendor did state they are great at certain things, the vendor took pride in the fact he put my needs first, not my money, and gave me a reccomendation.

I apologize for the long winded post, but I hate to see such an excellent and informative thread get lost in Styles, Opinions, and pride. Having folks add feul to the fire is also disappointing, but it happens.

I hope you all have a Blessed day, and I look forward to learning so much from everyone, not just the Vendors.

JimmyG

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

If Your wondering so much about fuel and race gas vs race gas additive can you please explain to me
livernois how my stock fuel system and stock turbo made 352/410 with e30 from the pump no custom blend of fuel with a cobb and adam tuning my car.I recall that's the stock whp stock turbo record so stop bashing you competition to make yourself sound better.

We're not bashing anyone. We are being bashed for trying to provide a little inside information. We try to help as much as possible, but there are several solutions that we cannot discuss. We get the brunt of everyone's frustrations because we are restricted on some of the info/data that we can share.

I am not sure what your first comment is supposed to be asking, it seems that it is supposed to end as a question because it starts with if.

 

[MAPerformance]

If Your wondering so much about fuel and race gas vs race gas additive can you please explain to me
livernois how my stock fuel system and stock turbo made 352/410 with e30 from the pump no custom blend of fuel with a cobb and adam tuning my car.I recall that's the stock whp stock turbo record so stop bashing you competition to make yourself sound better.

Competition? We only look at other manufacturers of product as competition. LMS's competition is Cobb.

You are correct Race Gas additive, no need for quotes, is much different than MS109. If you would like to be educated on it their website is pretty extensive. http://race-gas.com/

But it doesn't change from the fact that adding it to the fuel maxed out the stock fuel configurations and they needed to be modified in order to support the new CeQ and Stoich SP.

 

[fusion13]

I have mentioned a couple of times about alternatives to the fueling problem but the way other DI platforms are getting around their problem are throttle body injection or port injection setups. Although the setup is more complicated than the stock fuel system it does allow for better idle and low rpm driving along with an easy ability to change out to larger injectors if needed.

Sponsored