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Building the motor

Plimmer

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I’m late to the game but instead of a sleeved 5.0 block you could consider this one
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6010-M52B
Some of the online retailers have it at a pretty good price.

I used this block and everything from my 5.0 swapped over no issues, but you’ll need the bigger bore pistons
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80FoxCoupe

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You seem to gloss over the fact that I already did....with inferior technology. And there’s no way I’m going to skip the design and engineering process just to prove science works to some forum member who calls gasoline chocolate milk.
Is e85 available in your area?
 

engineermike

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Is e85 available in your area?
It is but about 40 miles round trip to get it, and not on my way to anywhere. Basically, I’d spend 40 miles of my now-200 mile range getting fuel, the remainder would be good for 3 days’ drive to work before again having to drive an hour out of my way to get fuel. However, there are 4 Shell stations that are on my way. And yes, I daily my car now and want to continue to do so while capable of 9’s at 140+.
 

80FoxCoupe

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It is but about 40 miles round trip to get it, and not on my way to anywhere. Basically, I’d spend 40 miles of my now-200 mile range getting fuel, the remainder would be good for 3 days’ drive to work before again having to drive an hour out of my way to get fuel. However, there are 4 Shell stations that are on my way. And yes, I daily my car now and want to continue to do so while capable of 9’s at 140+.
Gotcha, sounds like you are stuck with 93. I went 9.80 at 140 on 93 with a stock gen2 engine but wanted to go faster. I have e85 all over, so higher CR, high boost was my route. The beauty of the coyote is that you can run 9s at 140 on a stock engine on 93.
 

Angrey

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Right?!!! And that silly GT500 with lower compression running E85 and a tune only makes 2x "ass loads of power".
Soooooo Silly... pweeeeeeee...
I guess PBD is faking these numbers on stock block 2020 GT500?
He must be Silly tooo!!!
Silly 2.7 pulley on e85:
3E090DA7-6B48-44F3-B854-101C6C9FC182.jpeg

2.xx pulley goes 1100+ rwhp.....
(strange he talks about octane limits... hmmmmm)
looked for videos of E85 12:1 making 1100+ rwhp... cant find. you gots?
Sigh,

Yes, if you put a teeny tiny pulley on the same blower on a 12:1 motor you'll get the same (actually higher) results. You're proving my point. In that video they're nearing as small a pulley as currently made/available and running 21 psi to get there. You can make 1100 rear on an 18+ or 350 motor without spinning it. to 21 psi.

Secondly, you say "stock" motor like it's apples/apples with a voodoo or 18+ coyote motor. It's not, the 500 motor is "semi" built (as reflected in the fact that it cost WAY more).

If we put 2 motors, equally built (or not built) one with 12:1 and one with 9.5:1 and both on E-85, the higher compression motor will make the same power with reduced boost. That's the entire point of this debate.

Spinning the blower has detrimental consequences and limitations, including:

1) a reduction in adiabatic efficiency (aka, the higher you spin the blower, the more parasitic losses you incur and the more power you have to make for every hp/lb-ft that actually make it to the tires)
2) An increase in either IAT or intercooler required to keep equivalent IAT. Since the size of the intercooler is fixed for a comparison, spinning to 21 psi is going to result in higher IATs than it's counterpart boosting less (but at the same power)
3) Belt slip gets a vote, so eventually, trying to spin the blower to the moon is going to result in increased likelihood of belt slip, which again, reduces efficiency OR requires the use of increased rib system
4) As you see in the video, he didn't make that with a stock blower, it had to be PORTED in order to huff hard enough to reach those levels (unlike it would have if it were higher compression). As you spin the blower upward of it's efficiency range, restrictions in the blower's plenum and related architecture become a serious impediment to efficiency.

The real question is....who will tap out first, the higher compression motor before it starts seeing knock at elevated boost, or the lower compression motor when it starts bumping up against the limitations of the blower and the intercooler and belt/pulley and getting greatly diminished marginal returns.

My position stands. If lower compression is so great, then we'd all be running 7:1 compression and 35 psi on pump 87.

It's EASIER to reach 1000 rwhp on a 12:1 motor than it is on a 9.5:1 motor (on E-85 with the same blower architecture). Period. End of story and debate.
 

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Angrey

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And not for nothing, once the higher comp motor starts seeing knock or won't stomach 20 degrees of timing anymore at higher power, it always has the option of other easy add ons like meth injection or nitrous to calm it down and add more boost. Once the lower compression motor starts running out of blower, there's no easy tricks left, it just can't huff anymore or find a pulley microscopic enough to continue on.
 

Dominant1

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If i needed to build a motor my goal would be 900 whp i would use 11.5:1 compression with my Procharger D1x. My stock Gen2 motor is doing well at 750 whp on Pump + octane booster with a 4.88 pulley. But I’m gonna turn it up a bit with a 4.50 pulley, I want to hit 825-850 whp. My 6r80 is being built to handle 1000 hp. Cant wait, trans should be done this week..
 

engineermike

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Yes, if you put a teeny tiny pulley on the same blower on a 12:1 motor you'll get the same (actually higher) results. You're proving my point. In that video they're nearing as small a pulley as currently made/available and running 21 psi to get there. You can make 1100 rear on an 18+ or 350 motor without spinning it. to 21 psi.

Secondly, you say "stock" motor like it's apples/apples with a voodoo or 18+ coyote motor. It's not, the 500 motor is "semi" built (as reflected in the fact that it cost WAY more)
I think the boosted GT350 vs GT500 is a great comparison.

It’s true that Palm Beach Dyno did spin the little 2.65 blower pretty fast to make 1100 wheel with the 9.5/1 GT500, 22 psi apparently. They did break 1000 rwhp at 19 psi.

I’d like to know what boost, exactly, it took a 12/1 GT350 to make 1100 on a supercharger, for comparison’s sake. Brenspeed seems to think it takes 20 psi to hit 1000, and that’s with the larger, more efficient 3.0 liter Whipple blower spinning slower, 12/1 compression, plus a sleeved block.

I must admit I haven’t done much modeling and benchmarking on E85, but it still holds true on E85 that for any given peak cylinder pressure it will have a higher average cylinder pressure and, thus, make more power and torque.
 

Angrey

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I think the boosted GT350 vs GT500 is a great comparison.

It’s true that Palm Beach Dyno did spin the little 2.65 blower pretty fast to make 1100 wheel with the 9.5/1 GT500, 22 psi apparently. They did break 1000 rwhp at 19 psi.

I’d like to know what boost, exactly, it took a 12/1 GT350 to make 1100 on a supercharger, for comparison’s sake. Brenspeed seems to think it takes 20 psi to hit 1000, and that’s with the larger, more efficient 3.0 liter Whipple blower spinning slower, 12/1 compression, plus a sleeved block.

I must admit I haven’t done much modeling and benchmarking on E85, but it still holds true on E85 that for any given peak cylinder pressure it will have a higher average cylinder pressure and, thus, make more power and torque.
We're kinda muddling several issues though.

1) The composition of the block/internals (other than compression) isn't material outside of it's ability to withstand the levels being discussed. The 500 motor is slightly or marginally built. It's not the same internals as the voodoo or the coyote but it's not comparable to a fully built aftermarket setup. For purposes here, let's set it aside and assume both motors can handle what we're asking of them.

2) The 2.65 TVS blower is nearing the top of it's efficiency range, but extended due to the porting. The 3.0 liter is indeed more efficient and a better blower, but at power levels being discussed is just starting to reach it's stride. There's cars running 1300 rwhp on a 3.0 gen 5. Either way, let's pick one blower and compare the two (to be apples/apples).

It's true that running a bigger starting blower on both approaches favors the lower compression (which is going to ask for more boost).

3) Heat is a pay me now, pay me later affair. Whether you compress the air before you mix or you compress the mixture, it's going to generate heat. The question is, can the intercooler manage the additional heat sufficiently to give it an advantage pre-mix, vs lower charge air temp and compressing post injection.

I think I've summed up the question and framed it well, will the higher compression cry uncle (on E85) with timing to control the peak dynamic pressures before the limitations of more boost cry uncle (or present significant challenges to overcome with 10 rib systems, overdrive systems, having to port the blower, having to run additional cooling, etc). Remember something like meth injection or a 50 shot of nitrous kinda resets the bar for the high compression motor. So it seems both approaches have things that can extend their efficacy.

I'll summarize by saying, again, on pump gas, I would keep compression lower and raise boost. But on E-85, with the power levels that MOST of us would be even theoretical to pursue, there's no need for it and you're just leaving power on the table and having to strain the capability of the blower/intercooler setup.

For anything less than full on competitive drag car, I'd run E-85 and high compression and keep the blower/intercooler system manageable. But that's me. Choose whatever works for you.
 

engineermike

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3) Heat is a pay me now, pay me later affair. Whether you compress the air before you mix or you compress the mixture, it's going to generate heat. The question is, can the intercooler manage the additional heat sufficiently to give it an advantage pre-mix, vs lower charge air temp and compressing post injection.
Heat is definitely the crux of the issue. You know that the temp of the inlet change is important, but this is only because it directly affects the temp of the charge prior to ignition. Consider that the air goes through 2 "stages" of compression before spark occurs: the 1st is in the supercharger, then it is cooled, then fuel is injected and it is compressed more in the cylinder. However, the nature of engine is such you can't cool the air again after compression but before spark occurs. This is actually the key advantage of GDI, which cools during compression, and E85, which sub-cools before compression due to high heat of vaporization. Anyway, one disadvantage of lower compression/higher boost is that you have to compress more in the supercharger, which adds more heat to the air before it is intercooled. However, if you look at the entire compression process (both stages of compression), it still leads to a lower temperature at the end of the compression stroke, even with marginal intercooling. The final temperature after compression in the cylinder, T2=T1 x (CR)^(k-1). It doesn't take much playing with the input to see the boost pressure alone has zero effect on the charge temp before spark. However, to your point, adding 20 deg of boosted air temp increases post-compression temp by 50 deg. To my point, lowering compression ratio from 11 to 9.5 lowers the post-compression temp by 80 deg. So, if the MCT increases by 20 deg from the extra boost, then the temp where it counts (in-cylinder, prior to spark) is still 30 deg cooler due to the reduced compression ratio.

I think I've summed up the question and framed it well, will the higher compression cry uncle (on E85) with timing to control the peak dynamic pressures before the limitations of more boost cry uncle (or present significant challenges to overcome with 10 rib systems, overdrive systems, having to port the blower, having to run additional cooling, etc). Remember something like meth injection or a 50 shot of nitrous kinda resets the bar for the high compression motor. So it seems both approaches have things that can extend their efficacy.
I don’t know if the E85 motors are tuned to run at Borderline Knock like gasoline engines. If not, then the heat isn’t as much of an issue. If so, then it’s the same argument as pump gas, just the numbers are 35% higher.

I'll summarize by saying, again, on pump gas, I would keep compression lower and raise boost. But on E-85, with the power levels that MOST of us would be even theoretical to pursue, there's no need for it and you're just leaving power on the table and having to strain the capability of the blower/intercooler setup.

For anything less than full on competitive drag car, I'd run E-85 and high compression and keep the blower/intercooler system manageable. But that's me. Choose whatever works for you.
I do a agree that if your goal is 8 or 900 rwhp and you want to run E85, there’s not as much advantage of lowering compression/raising boost unless you just want some extra safety factor and room for error.
 

sigintel

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Sigh,
the 500 motor is "semi" built like a semi truck.

If we put 2 motors, equally built (or not built) one with 12:1 and one with 9.5:1 and both on E-85, the higher compression motor will make the same power with reduced boost. That's the entire point of this debate.

Spinning the blower has detrimental consequences and limitations, including:

1) a reduction in adiabatic efficiency and lots of pppwwwWWWWWEEEeeeeeee noises.
2) An increase in either IAT or intercooler required to keep equivalent IAT and that takes way more lube.
3) Belt slip gets a vote, since all that lube gets sprayed everywhere.
4) As you see in the video, that unicorn is blowing past his upward efficiency range, restrictions in the blower's plenum cause rainbow tears to come out his tiny little arse.

My position stands. I am Joe Biden.

Period. End of story and debate.
You win
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