Racing Brake 2020 GT500 Carbon Ceramic Brake Group Buy

[VooDoo387R]

I volunteer my car as tribute if I can keep the components at the completion of testing, plus tires.

Sponsored

 

[ZRacerLE]

Racing Brake has done extensive research and analysis for their components. You can see the below data chart that will help people understand the differences between the two compounds, as prepared by Warren himself when initially developing his Porsche components back in 2015. This level of scientific analysis is what has been used to engineer all of the brake upgrades he produces:

Carbon Ceramic Brake Demystified

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-g...mystified.html

Shared with you is research I have done for our CCM brake development.

I have been reading hundreds of threads in this and other forums about "pccb" or not "pccb" or something to that nature, and for sure there are many more to come, but I have yet to see a fact sheet comparing these two type of rotor materials:

Carbon Ceramic - Known as pccb (Porsche Carbon Ceramic Brake)
Cast Iron - Commonly referred to as "Steel"

So here it is.

Data source: http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/internat...ml?__locale=en

This chart with my comment and note should satisfy most of your query for a clear and true understanding between two type of rotor material, and their respective advantage and disadvantage which hopefully can help you make a better decision.

Analysis is based on the data published by SGL (Now owned by Brembo) and my reference from various material data book. My comment was duly verified by Geoff Whitfield - Engineering Manager of Surface Transforms.

This presentation is deemed to be accurate at the time of publishing.

If you still have question please feel free to address, in the meantime please keep the discussion focused on the material fundamental and their respective characteristics.

For those who are interested in learning more, we have a more comprehensive collection on CCM including mfg process and experiment data etc. here:

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1484

Furthermore.....

Racing brake is prepared to put its components to a test where it matters most, on track. RB will provide complete set of its CCB for the GT500, GT350, or BOTH for actual on track testing, by you, Billy Johnson. You name the time and location of the testing so the components can be there in time for you to examine, properly burnish, and run. I will book a flight to be there at the track as well. RB is not asking you to do track the components because it has any doubt in the engineering. It is not something they will be paying you for. But they do want to let everyone know this setup has been engineered for the highest level of performance. If someone of your experience has a doubt, they want to remove that doubt. While also taking the data to make the setup better, if needed.

I will send you a DM to arrange for the testing to occur. Assuming your goal here is to truly help enthusiasts this should be the perfect opportunity to make that happen. If you are unable we will still look to secure a comparable driver to do the same.

I've always been afraid of ccb because of the risk of cracking if I accidentally bump too hard putting wheels on and off or a big enough rock getting thrown in at high speed. Is that a real risk? You read people talking about that on forums, but I know how false info can spread like wild fire.

 

[Tomster]

Daytona has events in Oct, Nov, and Dec.

 

[50 Deep]

Ok, now who's gonna pony up the car? Lol

My car will have brakes on. Likely the new aero I have been developing with Archetype Racing as well. I have several local buddies I can likely convince to let bring out their GT500 as a stock comparison. We still need to hold our private track day, so it might work out well to plan along with that. This way plenty of run time is afforded.

 

[16Kobra]

I ran VP 98 octane fuel about a half to 3/4 of tank each session the guy next to me running in same group had a porsche 911 gt3 he only filled up once with the extended fuel tank of 23 gallons however the gt3 absolutely got left in the dust anytime I accelerated out of a turn or straights honestly the 500 is super fast the brakes are so good that I actually was braking too early The brakes are excellent just wanted to put that out there I have video ill post in a few days of the 500 on the track at high pace

Hey Allen, being you are in the Tampa area, have you been to The Firm.

There is a group of us (about7) who go up every once in a while. Sure would love to see your new one up there.

 

[Tomster]

My car will have brakes on. Likely the new aero I have been developing with Archetype Racing as well. I have several local buddies I can likely convince to let bring out their GT500 as a stock comparison. We still need to hold our private track day, so it might work out well to plan along with that. This way plenty of run time is afforded.

I think the braking that Billy is referring to is screaming down the backstretch of Daytona at near max speed of the car and max braking for the bus stop or near full speed on the front stretch and max braking into turn 1.

I've seen him brake as a passenger in my car and I about brake the same. If he says those brakes are not suitable until they have been tested and certified, i have to believe him.

 

[16Kobra]

I think the braking that Billy is referring to is screaming down the backstretch of Daytona at near max speed of the car and max braking for the bus stop or near full speed on the front stretch and max braking into turn 1.

I've seen him brake as a passenger in my car and I about brake the same. If he says those brakes are not suitable until they have been tested and certified, i have to believe him.

I know I will be there to watch....

 

[Tomster]

I know I will be there to watch....

Daytona is hard on the brakes. I go through almost two sets of pads in a 3 day weekend.

 

[50 Deep]

I've always been afraid of ccb because of the risk of cracking if I accidentally bump too hard putting wheels on and off or a big enough rock getting thrown in at high speed. Is that a real risk? You read people talking about that on forums, but I know how false info can spread like wild fire.

Think about the amount of clamping load placed on the brakes at threshold braking. It’s not like a ceramic plate. Neither of those actions should cause a rotor to fail.

I think the braking that Billy is referring to is screaming down the backstretch of Daytona at near max speed of the car and max braking for the bus stop or near full speed on the front stretch and max braking into turn 1.

I've seen him brake as a passenger in my car and I about brake the same. If he says those brakes are not suitable until they have been tested and certified, i have to believe him.

I will disagree with you here T. In this same fact pattern Billy could cast doubt on any product and you would follow suit by saying “if it hasn’t gone through Billy then it’s not safe.” I don’t think Girodisc, Maximum Motorsports, BMR, Steeda Wilwood or Baer run their components through him either. So those must be unsafe as well?

RB is already well established in the CCB marketplace. Their research data is openly shared. Proven to work on street and track. But as always I will provide some of my own data to see what the setup truly does.

 

[16Kobra]

Daytona is hard on the brakes. I go through almost two sets of pads in a 3 day weekend.

And that is the reason I am not as fast as you. I dont go thru brakes as bad. But, I am getting there!

 

[Tomster]

And that is the reason I am not as fast as you. I dont go thru brakes as bad. But, I am getting there!

And rotors

 

[Tomster]

Think about the amount of clamping load placed on the brakes at threshold braking. It’s not like a ceramic plate. Neither of those actions should cause a rotor to fail.

I will disagree with you here T. In this same fact pattern Billy could cast doubt on any product and you would follow suit by saying “if it hasn’t gone through Billy then it’s not safe.” I don’t think Girodisc, Maximum Motorsports, BMR, Steeda Wilwood or Baer run their components through him either. So those must be unsafe as well?

RB is already well established in the CCB marketplace. Their research data is openly shared. Proven to work on street and track. But as always I will provide some of my own data to see what the setup truly does.

Its a shame you couldn't come to daytona last year. You'd understand.

 

[BillyJRacing]

Racing Brake has done extensive research and analysis for their components. You can see the below data chart that will help people understand the differences between the two compounds, as prepared by Warren himself when initially developing his Porsche components back in 2015. This level of scientific analysis is what has been used to engineer all of the brake upgrades he produces:

Carbon Ceramic Brake Demystified

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-g...mystified.html

Shared with you is research I have done for our CCM brake development.

I have been reading hundreds of threads in this and other forums about "pccb" or not "pccb" or something to that nature, and for sure there are many more to come, but I have yet to see a fact sheet comparing these two type of rotor materials:

Carbon Ceramic - Known as pccb (Porsche Carbon Ceramic Brake)
Cast Iron - Commonly referred to as "Steel"

So here it is.

Data source: http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/internat...ml?__locale=en

This chart with my comment and note should satisfy most of your query for a clear and true understanding between two type of rotor material, and their respective advantage and disadvantage which hopefully can help you make a better decision.

Analysis is based on the data published by SGL (Now owned by Brembo) and my reference from various material data book. My comment was duly verified by Geoff Whitfield - Engineering Manager of Surface Transforms.

This presentation is deemed to be accurate at the time of publishing.

If you still have question please feel free to address, in the meantime please keep the discussion focused on the material fundamental and their respective characteristics.

For those who are interested in learning more, we have a more comprehensive collection on CCM including mfg process and experiment data etc. here:

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1484

Furthermore.....

Racing brake is prepared to put its components to a test where it matters most, on track. RB will provide complete set of its CCB for the GT500, GT350, or BOTH for actual on track testing, by you, Billy Johnson. You name the time and location of the testing so the components can be there in time for you to examine, properly burnish, and run. I will book a flight to be there at the track as well. RB is not asking you to do track the components because it has any doubt in the engineering. It is not something they will be paying you for. But they do want to let everyone know this setup has been engineered for the highest level of performance. If someone of your experience has a doubt, they want to remove that doubt. While also taking the data to make the setup better, if needed.

Unless RB repurposes CCB & CCM rotors from other applications (likely -nothing wrong with that), the inconsistency of the usage of CCB and CCM is concerning because they are different technologies that perform differently.

A big thing that post is missing is Thermal Capacity -which is the reason Carbon Ceramic brakes are larger than iron brakes in the same application. Let's look at some examples:

991 GT3 Iron: 380 mm & 380 mm
991 GT3 PCCB: 410 mm & 390 mm - 8% & 3% larger

MP4 12C Iron: 370 mm & 350 mm
MP4 12C CC: 394 mm & 380 mm - 7% & 9% larger

AMG GT-S Iron: 390 mm & 360 mm
AMG GT-S CC: 401 mm & 360 mm - 3% & same

F430 Iron: 330 mm
F430 CCM: 380 mm & 350 mm - 15% & 6% larger

612 Iron: 345 mm & 330 mm
612 CC: 380 mm & 350 mm - 10% & 6% larger

458 & 488 GTB: 398 mm / 360 mm


SO, if the GT500's 16.5" (420 mm) iron rotor had a similar 7% increase in diameter, that would = 448 mm or 17.65" rotor

But let's go with the AMG GT's 3% increase. That would still = 433 mm, or a 17" rotor.

Neither of these are really possible without going to 21-22" wheels.

The GT500's 16.5" rotors are already some of the biggest out there and can stop the car lap after lap on end with stock street brake pads. That was the goal for the project and it was definitely accomplished.

It's quite documented and well known that people who track their cars remove CC rotors and replace them with iron. Not only is it less expensive, but the iron rotors have more thermal capacity and can use far more aggressive pad compounds:

https://www.essexparts.com/essex-de...ook-disc-pair-front-398x36mm-mercedes-amg-gts

I'm actually in favor of CC brakes. They're lighter for unsprung weight, improve steering feel and handling. They are also far better for street use than iron from a cost perspective. However for track-focused cars, they are NOT cost effective and you'll be paying a premium for the reduced weight. But i'm all for it. Many are not. However, carbon wheels do far more than carbon brakes in this department:

https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/

I will send you a DM to arrange for the testing to occur. Assuming your goal here is to truly help enthusiasts this should be the perfect opportunity to make that happen. If you are unable we will still look to secure a comparable driver to do the same.

I'm always trying to help the community and enthusiasts. I spend more time on here and FB than I should trying to help people. Mostly to answer misconceptions and let them know they don't need to spend money on what they're trying to accomplish; and they should put that money towards more track days and just have fun. Many try to push an unnecessary 'need' to generate a sale (not claiming that you are, because I don't recall you claiming these will solve a braking deficiency).

However, it's not up to ME to determine if these brakes are good on my own dollar. It'll cost at least $10K in 4-5 sets of tires alone, not including fuel, track rental, track insurance, etc... to do a proper brake test. I don't see a reason to spend that kind of money to test someone else's product for them to have more credibility.

I've always been afraid of ccb because of the risk of cracking if I accidentally bump too hard putting wheels on and off or a big enough rock getting thrown in at high speed. Is that a real risk? You read people talking about that on forums, but I know how false info can spread like wild fire.

That's not really a significant concern from a MFG like Brembo or Surface Transforms. If RB is using a different (Chinese?) supplier, and if they aren't tested to the same levels of Brembo or ST, then there is legitimate concern of those brakes. It's hard to say if they'll crack, explode, or be fine, but composite brakes are quite complex and they take months to make properly. It's not something you can easily copy and produce like an iron rotor. If you use factory CCB rotors, the main concern would be fade.

I will disagree with you here T. In this same fact pattern Billy could cast doubt on any product and you would follow suit by saying “if it hasn’t gone through Billy then it’s not safe.” I don’t think Girodisc, Maximum Motorsports, BMR, Steeda Wilwood or Baer run their components through him either. So those must be unsafe as well?

RB is already well established in the CCB marketplace. Their research data is openly shared. Proven to work on street and track. But as always I will provide some of my own data to see what the setup truly does.

Those companies aren't making carbon ceramic brakes. If someone was putting a set of Wilwood brakes on their GT500 for road course use, I would probably also express similar concerns, as I have done with people putting smaller AP calipers on their GT350s.

I'm not sure i'd claim they are 'established' Carbon Ceramic manufacturers, but rather have made kits adapting existing rotors for new applications.

For the GT350 or most cars, using an OEM Brembo CC rotor isn't a huge risk and would probably be fine for 99.5% of the owner who track them. However, upon learning about a "new/custom" unproven rotor, there is a risk since Carbon Ceramic rotors are not simple devices. Neither are carbon wheels.

Putting a CC on a GT500 is also a risk, and then using an unproven "new" CC rotor on a GT500 increases that risk even further. -All to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I get the need for wanting to make the car lighter, and I've already stated for street use and for most people on track, it MIGHT/probably will be fine. But those are legitimate concerns.

 

[Twisted O CFTP]

Hey Allen, being you are in the Tampa area, have you been to The Firm.

There is a group of us (about7) who go up every once in a while. Sure would love to see your new one up there.

I have not been to the firm I just found out about the track when I got the 500 Im all down to go I live in the orlando area. Im all in let me know when your going If I like the track I might get a yearly pass I have watched the videos of the track looks cool thanks for the invite keep me posted

 

[Twisted O CFTP]

Racing Brake has done extensive research and analysis for their components. You can see the below data chart that will help people understand the differences between the two compounds, as prepared by Warren himself when initially developing his Porsche components back in 2015. This level of scientific analysis is what has been used to engineer all of the brake upgrades he produces:

Carbon Ceramic Brake Demystified

http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-g...mystified.html

Shared with you is research I have done for our CCM brake development.

I have been reading hundreds of threads in this and other forums about "pccb" or not "pccb" or something to that nature, and for sure there are many more to come, but I have yet to see a fact sheet comparing these two type of rotor materials:

Carbon Ceramic - Known as pccb (Porsche Carbon Ceramic Brake)
Cast Iron - Commonly referred to as "Steel"

So here it is.

Data source: http://www.sglgroup.com/cms/internat...ml?__locale=en

This chart with my comment and note should satisfy most of your query for a clear and true understanding between two type of rotor material, and their respective advantage and disadvantage which hopefully can help you make a better decision.

Analysis is based on the data published by SGL (Now owned by Brembo) and my reference from various material data book. My comment was duly verified by Geoff Whitfield - Engineering Manager of Surface Transforms.

This presentation is deemed to be accurate at the time of publishing.

If you still have question please feel free to address, in the meantime please keep the discussion focused on the material fundamental and their respective characteristics.

For those who are interested in learning more, we have a more comprehensive collection on CCM including mfg process and experiment data etc. here:

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=1484

Furthermore.....

Racing brake is prepared to put its components to a test where it matters most, on track. RB will provide complete set of its CCB for the GT500, GT350, or BOTH for actual on track testing, by you, Billy Johnson. You name the time and location of the testing so the components can be there in time for you to examine, properly burnish, and run. I will book a flight to be there at the track as well. RB is not asking you to do track the components because it has any doubt in the engineering. It is not something they will be paying you for. But they do want to let everyone know this setup has been engineered for the highest level of performance. If someone of your experience has a doubt, they want to remove that doubt. While also taking the data to make the setup better, if needed.

I will send you a DM to arrange for the testing to occur. Assuming your goal here is to truly help enthusiasts this should be the perfect opportunity to make that happen. If you are unable we will still look to secure a comparable driver to do the same.

I've always been afraid of ccb because of the risk of cracking if I accidentally bump too hard putting wheels on and off or a big enough rock getting thrown in at high speed. Is that a real risk? You read people talking about that on forums, but I know how false info can spread like wild fire.

I have the full carbon fiber track pack 500 with carbon wheels Im down and interested in test and Billy is highly respected and knowledgeable along with one of the lead developers of the 500 If the development and is accurate I would let Billy take my cftp 500 at sebring or daytona to test the brakes since he already knows the limits of the oem rotors I already did a track day at sebring so I understand the braking limits already regardless of the weight of the 500 it brakes extremely hard and firm As mentioned for me it wouldn't be about having better braking the 500 already has that it would be the unsprung weight and better handling if thats what the rotors can do if the handling is better in turn then you have developed something thats worth the bang for the buck As mentioned if billy wants to drive my 500 he is more then welcome for the test we both live in Florida I'm in the orlando area and he is about 2 hrs away we could have rare fab do the install Will is one of the best

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