This is Stupid

[Burkey]

I think you have it completely wrong on the critical thinking thing. If you believe news might be fake, that gives you a reason to question it. Unless you are the type that doesn't think critically and you never question the news. I have noticed that the news has been problematic for at least the last 30 years, but it either used to be a lot more subtle or I didn't know enough yet.

My point was that critical thinkers already know that there will be bias at times. They don’t accept ANYTHING without applying a level of scepticism. Genuine scepticism requires that ALL claims are challenged.
When Trump spouts his reply as “that’s fake news” he’s essentially trying to appeal to an entire demographic of people who simply don’t understand that whatsoever. when journalists ask tough questions, you give well-reasoned, ARTICULATE answers that stop that train of questioning, or at least alter the context of the questioning in the future.
Or, you just spout “fake news” and have them ask the exact same question again next week and then claim bullying when they just won’t stop..
.
It’s really that simple.

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[Gregs24]

Except that it’s pretty much EVERY source of media outside of the US.....
It’s not fake news I’m sorry mate. We actually watch this man speaking. It’s his words that indict him, not the media.

This is the critical point. Trump and his fanboys constantly claim fake news but fail to notice the rubbish that comes out of his mouth.

 

[Burkey]

This is the critical point. Trump and his fanboys constantly claim fake news but fail to notice the rubbish that comes out of his mouth.

It wasn’t that long ago that someone on this forum denied the president ever saying “such and such”. Video evidence was provided, in FULL context, followed by our staunch supporter claiming it was fake news because it was on CNN....
Apparently CNN are able to create alternative footage these days.
There’s no helping someone who’s reached that level of delusion,

 

[Hack]

My point was that critical thinkers already know that there will be bias at times. They don’t accept ANYTHING without applying a level of scepticism. Genuine scepticism requires that ALL claims are challenged.
When Trump spouts his reply as “that’s fake news” he’s essentially trying to appeal to an entire demographic of people who simply don’t understand that whatsoever. when journalists ask tough questions, you give well-reasoned, ARTICULATE answers that stop that train of questioning, or at least alter the context of the questioning in the future.
Or, you just spout “fake news” and have them ask the exact same question again next week and then claim bullying when they just won’t stop..
.
It’s really that simple.

Just because people disagree with you politically doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

We ALL know that the MSM is full of fake news. Just look at the Russia collusion HOAX that the MSM pushed for YEARS. They even knew it was incorrect and they still kept pushing it.

Did you believe the Russia collusion HOAX for 2 years? Some people STILL believe it! Basically they WANT to believe so badly that they have stopped thinking critically.

When the media spouts blatant lies over and over again you think Trump should treat them seriously? That's crazy.

Can you even admit the truth? The MSM doesn't even try to be factual - they just attack with anything they believe has traction. They have absolutely no regard for the truth.

There is no reason whatsoever to treat the MSM as though they have to be gently discredited step by step with a thorough analysis and exacting details. It's like trying to talk sense to the kindergarten bully that's about to punch you. Dumb to even try. What you do is punch him first. Or better yet, knee him where it hurts.

 

[Burkey]

Just because people disagree with you politically doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

We ALL know that the MSM is full of fake news. Just look at the Russia collusion HOAX that the MSM pushed for YEARS. They even knew it was incorrect and they still kept pushing it.

Did you believe the Russia collusion HOAX for 2 years? Some people STILL believe it! Basically they WANT to believe so badly that they have stopped thinking critically.

When the media spouts blatant lies over and over again you think Trump should treat them seriously? That's crazy.

Can you even admit the truth? The MSM doesn't even try to be factual - they just attack with anything they believe has traction. They have absolutely no regard for the truth.

There is no reason whatsoever to treat the MSM as though they have to be gently discredited step by step with a thorough analysis and exacting details. It's like trying to talk sense to the kindergarten bully that's about to punch you. Dumb to even try. What you do is punch him first. Or better yet, knee him where it hurts.

I’m not suggesting that disagreement equates to lack of intelligence. Not at all. I’m quite sure that the less discerning public occupy both sides more or less equally.
I agree that the MSM do get it wrong from time to time, sometimes accidentally, other times with an agenda.
My point was, regardless of which side you might take or who you might support, simply stating that something is “fake news” doesn’t cut it. Would you accept it if the other side suddenly started playing that card?
Take a look at the language you’re using as you reply to my comment. Thing like “fake news” “hoax”, these are Trump buzz-words.

Now to the issue of collusion....
I’m not sure if he did or did not, call it 50/50. It’s not something I’ve spent too much time dwelling on. From my understating of it, it appears that there was a lack of evidence, but this doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t do it. Being found “not-guilty” isn’t the same as “innocent”.
I’m calling him not guilty.
However, they did find evidence that he may have obstructed justice in 10 instances. Again, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. But again, you’d have to ask yourself why this man seems to attract so many flies.

 

[Hack]

I’m not suggesting that disagreement equates to lack of intelligence. Not at all. I’m quite sure that the less discerning public occupy both sides more or less equally.
I agree that the MSM do get it wrong from time to time, sometimes accidentally, other times with an agenda.
My point was, regardless of which side you might take or who you might support, simply stating that something is “fake news” doesn’t cut it. Would you accept it if the other side suddenly started playing that card?
Take a look at the language you’re using as you reply to my comment. Thing like “fake news” “hoax”, these are Trump buzz-words.

Now to the issue of collusion....
I’m not sure if he did or did not, call it 50/50. It’s not something I’ve spent too much time dwelling on. From my understating of it, it appears that there was a lack of evidence, but this doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t do it. Being found “not-guilty” isn’t the same as “innocent”.
I’m calling him not guilty.
However, they did find evidence that he may have obstructed justice in 10 instances. Again, I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. But again, you’d have to ask yourself why this man seems to attract so many flies.

Both sides play the fake news card. Trump came up with the term and then some of the MSM started using it to say that any news that supports Trump is fake.

Trump's political enemies investigated him for 2 years and didn't find any evidence that he colluded with Russia and you still call it 50/50?

I appreciate that you are willing to say he's not guilty. Some people hate him so much that they say he is guilty unless proven innocent. Some of your statements in fact imply that you somewhat feel that way. I find it scary when some people want that - guilty unless proven innocent. It's impossible to prove someone is innocent.

Regarding obstructing justice - you are mixing political statements and legal statements. I understand why because the MSM constantly does this. If there was evidence that Trump had broken the law in any significant way this would be a different conversation.

I believe you have heard the same lies and bias too many times and it is impeding your ability to think critically. 100 proven liars attack someone over and over. Once a media source lies enough times for long enough - frankly I ignore everything they say. I know they are liars so I stop paying any attention to them. But from what you are saying you feel that Trump is probably guilty of something because these liars have attacked him so many times.

Find a news source that hasn't lied about Trump Russia collusion. Then you have a chance of getting non-biased information. Think critically about what your news sources have been telling you and whether they really should be trusted. If you have an honest news source, they told you much more than a year ago that there was no Trump/Russia collusion and that the FBI was doing illegal things to go after Trump and his associates.

 

[Jetnoise]

Both sides play the fake news card. Trump came up with the term and then some of the MSM started using it to say that any news that supports Trump is fake.

Trump's political enemies investigated him for 2 years and didn't find any evidence that he colluded with Russia and you still call it 50/50?

I appreciate that you are willing to say he's not guilty. Some people hate him so much that they say he is guilty unless proven innocent. Some of your statements in fact imply that you somewhat feel that way. I find it scary when some people want that - guilty unless proven innocent. It's impossible to prove someone is innocent.

Regarding obstructing justice - you are mixing political statements and legal statements. I understand why because the MSM constantly does this. If there was evidence that Trump had broken the law in any significant way this would be a different conversation.

I believe you have heard the same lies and bias too many times and it is impeding your ability to think critically. 100 proven liars attack someone over and over. Once a media source lies enough times for long enough - frankly I ignore everything they say. I know they are liars so I stop paying any attention to them. But from what you are saying you feel that Trump is probably guilty of something because these liars have attacked him so many times.

Find a news source that hasn't lied about Trump Russia collusion. Then you have a chance of getting non-biased information. Think critically about what your news sources have been telling you and whether they really should be trusted. If you have an honest news source, they told you much more than a year ago that there was no Trump/Russia collusion and that the FBI was doing illegal things to go after Trump and his associates.

Pay attention for a few years ....you'll find ....Your words & observations are flawed but the truth isn't easy when it hurts
Listen to those who were in the room... not the media
We all are witnessing the destruction of something special. Sad

 

[Burkey]

Both sides play the fake news card. Trump came up with the term and then some of the MSM started using it to say that any news that supports Trump is fake.

Trump's political enemies investigated him for 2 years and didn't find any evidence that he colluded with Russia and you still call it 50/50?

I appreciate that you are willing to say he's not guilty. Some people hate him so much that they say he is guilty unless proven innocent. Some of your statements in fact imply that you somewhat feel that way. I find it scary when some people want that - guilty unless proven innocent. It's impossible to prove someone is innocent.

Regarding obstructing justice - you are mixing political statements and legal statements. I understand why because the MSM constantly does this. If there was evidence that Trump had broken the law in any significant way this would be a different conversation.

I believe you have heard the same lies and bias too many times and it is impeding your ability to think critically. 100 proven liars attack someone over and over. Once a media source lies enough times for long enough - frankly I ignore everything they say. I know they are liars so I stop paying any attention to them. But from what you are saying you feel that Trump is probably guilty of something because these liars have attacked him so many times.

Find a news source that hasn't lied about Trump Russia collusion. Then you have a chance of getting non-biased information. Think critically about what your news sources have been telling you and whether they really should be trusted. If you have an honest news source, they told you much more than a year ago that there was no Trump/Russia collusion and that the FBI was doing illegal things to go after Trump and his associates.

I was half way through a lengthy, step-by-step rebuttal when it occurred to me that all I was doing was addressing the same issue over and over again with slightly different nuances.

The short version of what you wrote is:
“You listen to the media”
“You probably believe he was involved in some form of collusion”
“The media are biased”
“There was no evidence in the whole Trump collusion thing.

My simple answer is, I don’t care what the media think or say, I usually form my opinions based on what HE says. You know, the words that come out of HIS mouth, not the interpretations of what he says.
Until YOU asked me to make ANY comment on the collusion thing, I had NEVER mentioned it. If that doesn’t tell you that I’m not basing my opinion of him on that issue, I don’t know what will.
Yes, the media CAN be biased. This isn’t news to anyone, It’s usually pretty easy to spot though, let’s be real.
Handy hint, if it comes from Breitbart, it’s likely to be bullshit from start to finish. I’m sure the extreme left have an equally spurious media source.

As a critical thinker, can you explain to me why the Australian media are selling “anti-trump” “fake news” to a bunch of people who don’t even get to vote? What purpose does it serve?

Now, onto the “no evidence” thing..... it’s not true to suggest that there was “no evidence” but it’s also untrue to suggest that the evidence was enough to form a compelling case.
Is it possible that he colluded? Yes, of course.
Is it plausible that he colluded? Yes, but less emphatically.
Is it LIKELY that he colluded? Unsure because it’s unproven,

Do you not at least find it strange that Trump changed his tune with regard to having met Putin and/or having a relationship with him? Do you yourself happen to recall if you’ve met Michael Jordan and/or have a relationship with him? Is that something you’re likely to forget?

And finally, whilst we’re discussing a matter that doesn’t inform my opinion of Trump, do you not also find it very strange that he was/is surrounded by people who HAVE been charged with lying to the investigators (amongst a raft of other charges)?

I honestly don’t know how you can see all of these facts and come away thinking he’s DEFINITELY squeaky clean. The man is surrounded by grubs.

https://time.com/5556331/mueller-investigation-indictments-guilty-pleas/?amp=true

 

[Hack]

I was half way through a lengthy, step-by-step rebuttal when it occurred to me that all I was doing was addressing the same issue over and over again with slightly different nuances.

The short version of what you wrote is:
“You listen to the media”
“You probably believe he was involved in some form of collusion”
“The media are biased”
“There was no evidence in the whole Trump collusion thing.

My simple answer is, I don’t care what the media think or say, I usually form my opinions based on what HE says. You know, the words that come out of HIS mouth, not the interpretations of what he says.
Until YOU asked me to make ANY comment on the collusion thing, I had NEVER mentioned it. If that doesn’t tell you that I’m not basing my opinion of him on that issue, I don’t know what will.
Yes, the media CAN be biased. This isn’t news to anyone, It’s usually pretty easy to spot though, let’s be real.
Handy hint, if it comes from Breitbart, it’s likely to be bullshit from start to finish. I’m sure the extreme left have an equally spurious media source.

As a critical thinker, can you explain to me why the Australian media are selling “anti-trump” “fake news” to a bunch of people who don’t even get to vote? What purpose does it serve?

Now, onto the “no evidence” thing..... it’s not true to suggest that there was “no evidence” but it’s also untrue to suggest that the evidence was enough to form a compelling case.
Is it possible that he colluded? Yes, of course.
Is it plausible that he colluded? Yes, but less emphatically.
Is it LIKELY that he colluded? Unsure because it’s unproven,

Do you not at least find it strange that Trump changed his tune with regard to having met Putin and/or having a relationship with him? Do you yourself happen to recall if you’ve met Michael Jordan and/or have a relationship with him? Is that something you’re likely to forget?

And finally, whilst we’re discussing a matter that doesn’t inform my opinion of Trump, do you not also find it very strange that he was/is surrounded by people who HAVE been charged with lying to the investigators (amongst a raft of other charges)?

I honestly don’t know how you can see all of these facts and come away thinking he’s DEFINITELY squeaky clean. The man is surrounded by grubs.

https://time.com/5556331/mueller-investigation-indictments-guilty-pleas/?amp=true

I think you have to re-read what I said, because you are misrepresenting it. If you trust a news source that doesn't tell the truth... just think about it.

If you believe that big corporations benefit from having government officials in their pockets it's easy to understand why the media does what it does. I'm not sure why you would even question it. It's very obvious that regulations help some businesses and hurt others. And Trump has removed more regulations than any other US president ever.

I will go along on your off topic rant - please give me one piece of evidence that Trump colluded with Russia. ANY ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE. Please. Like a video of Trump saying that he told someone to stop investigating his son - oops I guess that was Biden, wasn't it?

Trump is squeaky clean. Definitely he is. Otherwise whatever crime there was would be pasted virtually EVERYWHERE. You've seen what people did when there WASN'T a crime. Please think for a second. If there WAS a REAL crime would these people just sit and say NOTHING? Heck no!

edit: the Justice Department went after Trump associates to try to get them to turn on him. You must not have been told that by your "news" sources, huh? One of those associates has already had his case dropped.

 

[Burkey]

@Hack


I think you have to re-read what I said, because you are misrepresenting it. If you trust a news source that doesn't tell the truth... just think about it.
Just to be clear here, are you saying that any source that doesn’t agree with Trump is automatically “fake news” or do you agree that even when they sometimes get it wrong, there is often at least a kernel of truth in amongst it? Genuinely curious on this. The fact that the Russians were DEFINITELY involved in hacking is a matter of fact. The only part that’s left in question is whether or not Trump himself or his party were involved.

If you believe that big corporations benefit from having government officials in their pockets it's easy to understand why the media does what it does. I'm not sure why you would even question it. It's very obvious that regulations help some businesses and hurt others. And Trump has removed more regulations than any other US president ever.
I really, really wish you’d stop telling me what I believe. I’ll say it again in more plain language for you so that you can understand it properly. My dislike for Trump is NOT based on his politics per se. I think he’s a piece of shit human being. Period. He’s misogynistic, racist, anti-science and above all, an idiot. I’ve yet to see any evidence to change my mind on any of those positions. All of these things were abundantly clear BEFORE he even took office and nothing he’s done since then has portrayed him in a better light.
His politics however might in fact be in the best interests of America. I don’t know, I don’t live there and I’m mostly directly unaffected by his ideas

I will go along on your off topic rant - please give me one piece of evidence that Trump colluded with Russia. ANY ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE. Please. Like a video of Trump saying that he told someone to stop investigating his son - oops I guess that was Biden, wasn't it?

As I said earlier, it’s FACT that the Russians were hacking. The question is, WHY were they so keen to see the campaign take a certain direction? It’s quite possible that Trump had no knowledge of what was taking place. I fully acknowledge that fact. Without proof that he WAS involved or had knowledge, I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt, as I said earlier.
Why you’re dragging Biden into this is absolutely beyond me. Did I state that I support him?
This is known as a false dichotomy.
Also, why on earth you’re asking me to provide evidence of Trumps collusion when I’ve already stated that I’m unsure if he was involved or not, is utterly beyond me. If I thought I had that evidence, don’t you think I’d be asserting that he DEFINITELY did it? Why do you keep making these mistakes in very simple logic?

Trump is squeaky clean. Definitely he is. Otherwise whatever crime there was would be pasted virtually EVERYWHERE. You've seen what people did when there WASN'T a crime. Please think for a second. If there WAS a REAL crime would these people just sit and say NOTHING? Heck no!

edit: the Justice Department went after Trump associates to try to get them to turn on him. You must not have been told that by your "news" sources, huh? One of those associates has already had his case dropped.

I find it bizarre that you like to think of yourself as a critical-thinker and yet you state that Trump is “definitely squeaky clean”. I have news for you and it isn’t good. I can’t be absolutely sure of anything and neither can you and I’m not referring specifically to Trump when I say this. Absolute certainty exists in mathematics but outside of that, I’m not even sure that it could exist. It certainly doesn’t exist in science, an area that is literally dedicated to the art of scepticism. Ansolute certainty seems to only exist in the minds of those who stop asking questions when they’re (likely incorrectly) certain that they’ve reached the ultimate conclusion.
If you can’t accept that it’s even POSSIBLE that Trump COULD be involved, I can’t help you. That’s a genuine error in critical-thinking on your part.

In closing, I’ll leave you with this little gem of yours from another thread.
Anyway, my point is that I can easily forgive a Christian group for saying something negative about Trump. Christian groups can be dumb and misguided just like any secular group.

If you read that carefully, and think about what you’ve asserted, you’re basically saying that ANY criticism of Trump MUST, by it’s very nature, be “dumb and misguided”.
Yes, the man is utterly above scrutiny.....(facepalm)
That is literally the epitome of TDS. You just can’t see it.

 

[Hack]

In closing, I’ll leave you with this little gem of yours from another thread.
Anyway, my point is that I can easily forgive a Christian group for saying something negative about Trump. Christian groups can be dumb and misguided just like any secular group.

If you read that carefully, and think about what you’ve asserted, you’re basically saying that ANY criticism of Trump MUST, by it’s very nature, be “dumb and misguided”.
Yes, the man is utterly above scrutiny.....(facepalm)
That is literally the epitome of TDS. You just can’t see it

Yep, if you take my statement literally you are 100% correct. I didn't parse my words perfectly. You got me.

I've said many times that Trump has lots of flaws and there are many things he can be criticized on. I agree with many of the negative things you said about him. Frankly, I don't find him personally especially likeable. However, I think many of his actions have been very good for America. And I LOVE him for that.

I also LOVE how he is willing to fight the entrenched corrupt machinery in this country. Those huge world wide corporations that dislike him because he's not taking their bribes. That is awesome.

I still wish he were fiscally conservative, but my guess is he has to go along with some things in order to get cooperation from the RINOs in Congress. He's been remarkably capable in getting their cooperation. It's probably a big reason why his approval numbers are so sky high.

 

[Caballus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

 

[Bikeman315]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

Presuming he even makes it to November his chances to win re-election are dropping every single day. He knows it and his party knows it. Hell, even Fox knows it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ting-us-election-2020-president-a9547206.html

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/bidens-polling-lead-over-trump-getting-seriously-large.html

 

[watisthis]

I also LOVE how he is willing to fight the entrenched corrupt machinery in this country.

We must have different definitions of fight because this man has more corrupt allies and sham companies than almost anyone else. Trump makes the teapot dome scandal look silly.

Those huge world wide corporations that dislike him because he's not taking their bribes.

What? Have they come out and said this? I must have missed that. I thought they loved the deregulation and tax cut.

I still wish he were fiscally conservative, but my guess is he has to go along with some things in order to get cooperation from the RINOs in Congress.

Yeah, that's why he isn't fiscally conservative, not his entire history of never being fiscally conservative. Instead of guessing and assuming you should prob just do some objective research.

It's probably a big reason why his approval numbers are so sky high.

440 credit score? That is sky high!

 

[Hack]

Presuming he even makes it to November his chances to win re-election are dropping every single day. He knows it and his party knows it. Hell, even Fox knows it.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ting-us-election-2020-president-a9547206.html

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/bidens-polling-lead-over-trump-getting-seriously-large.html

That's what the MSM wants us to think, for sure.

If you looked at the polls one or two weeks before Trump was elected president and you believed the polls, you were SHOCKED at the outcome of the election. I think Caballus had a good point and I should have specified super accurately parsing my words perfectly how many MSM polls have different results than others. There are an awful lot of crappy polls out there.

Trump was 30-35 in some polls during October prior to the 2016 election. Now he's quite a bit higher even in the polls that aim at making him look bad.

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