Sponsored

Broken rings - which route

markmurfie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2015
Threads
15
Messages
1,157
Reaction score
502
Location
Hawaii
First Name
Mark
Vehicle(s)
2015 Ford Mustang GT
Along with the motored pressures, I think they got the high rpm, and low rpm mixed up. The low timing advance is usually low rpm, high timing advance would be at higher rpm. Good thing for our ability to peer review it.
Sponsored

 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,173
Reaction score
3,549
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
the only 10% advantage thats mentioned is for high compression, at low RPM. High RPM is only slightly toward low CR, nothing that can be seen in the graphs.
You misread that and have it backward. .
Chapter 19, Figure 20, bottom graph, solid red line with square markers is called "7000 RPM PWR". At 11.76/1 compression it's showing 500 kW and at 6.94/1 compression it's showing 550 kW. That's 10%, no? Furthermore, the text goes on to say, "At 7000 rpm, there is only a slight penalty in power output at high compression ratios and late spark timing."

I don't agree with the motored traces in the graph I posted, they have those wrong or on a different scale not shown. .
I checked them and they look correct to me. Figure 7, for instance, shows a peak motoring pressure of 28 bar. P2=P1*(CR)^k, so substituting you get P2=14.7*(12.16)^1.39=473 psi, or 32.2 bar. You'll notice an error, but the text goes on to say "The pressure inside the cylinder at the start of compression will be a bit lower than intake manifold pressure due to VE less than unity." Playing a bit with the P1 and substituting -2 psig yields 27.8 bar. As a test, apply the same P1 to the 6.94/1 case and you get a peak of 12.8 bar which is right in line with Figure 7. Next, the motoring pressure traces fall exactly on top of the fired traces right up until spark, which is exactly what you would expect. And finally, the motoring pressure traces match those in my model as long as the boundary conditions are set the same. I have found no reason to doubt the motoring pressure traces.

Detonation has little to do with pre spark temperature. Peak cylinder pressure is what causes it,.. .
If this were true, then gasoline wouldn't have an auto-ignition temperature.

The lower compression engine could not increase its boost more, as you seem to think, It would run into detonation if 80 bar was that threshold. .
80 bar Pmax is not a detonation threshold. It is a structural limit (page 56). This is typical for modern engine designers and calibrators. Some run much higher on 91 octane even.

You don't seem to understand this, detonation is in the end gases... .
Are you saying that the CO2, H2O and trace other chemicals that remain after combustion is what detonates?

Figures 24 and 25 are for low RPM. .
Correct and I did not say or imply otherwise.

Manifold pressure would not be able to be increased in either motor...
There is plenty of room to increase manifold pressure. The ignition timing would just have to be retarded in order to achieve the Pmax boundary condition.
 

markmurfie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2015
Threads
15
Messages
1,157
Reaction score
502
Location
Hawaii
First Name
Mark
Vehicle(s)
2015 Ford Mustang GT
Chapter 19, Figure 20, bottom graph, solid red line with square markers is called "7000 RPM PWR". At 11.76/1 compression it's showing 500 kW and at 6.94/1 compression it's showing 550 kW. That's 10%, no? Furthermore, the text goes on to say, "At 7000 rpm, there is only a slight penalty in power output at high compression ratios and late spark timing."



I checked them and they look correct to me. Figure 7, for instance, shows a peak motoring pressure of 28 bar. P2=P1*(CR)^k, so substituting you get P2=14.7*(12.16)^1.39=473 psi, or 32.2 bar. You'll notice an error, but the text goes on to say "The pressure inside the cylinder at the start of compression will be a bit lower than intake manifold pressure due to VE less than unity." Playing a bit with the P1 and substituting -2 psig yields 27.8 bar. As a test, apply the same P1 to the 6.94/1 case and you get a peak of 12.8 bar which is right in line with Figure 7. Next, the motoring pressure traces fall exactly on top of the fired traces right up until spark, which is exactly what you would expect. And finally, the motoring pressure traces match those in my model as long as the boundary conditions are set the same. I have found no reason to doubt the motoring pressure traces.



If this were true, then gasoline wouldn't have an auto-ignition temperature.



80 bar Pmax is not a detonation threshold. It is a structural limit (page 56). This is typical for modern engine designers and calibrators. Some run much higher on 91 octane even.



Are you saying that the CO2, H2O and trace other chemicals that remain after combustion is what detonates?



Correct and I did not say or imply otherwise.



There is plenty of room to increase manifold pressure. The ignition timing would just have to be retarded in order to achieve the Pmax boundary condition.

You go ahead a lower your compression, and try running 28* of advance at 2000RPM like those graphs indicate.... Or listen to me, don't lower your compression, and have a good calibration for the many reputable tuners for the Coyote that actually know what they are doing and talking about.

Gasoline doors have a auto ignition temp.
Don't cut my sentences in half, and they will make sense.

End gasses, as in the part of the charge that has not combusted yet, that should happen towards the end of combustion. Not the product gases of combustion.
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,173
Reaction score
3,549
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
Along with the motored pressures, I think they got the high rpm, and low rpm mixed up. The low timing advance is usually low rpm, high timing advance would be at higher rpm. Good thing for our ability to peer review it.
In figures 21, 22, and 23 he did not specify the IMP but I found that 1.5 bar fits his fired and unfired pressure traces. For figure 24 and 25, he states "lower engine speeds and boost pressure values". This implies that boost is being applied in 21, 22, and 23 and lower boost is being applied in 24 and 25 but he again did not specify a value. A boost pressure of 2 psig correlates with his fired and unfired pressure traces and matches his qualitative description at least. The increased ignition timing advance was required to reach 80 bar Pmax at the lower boost levels he described. This would be easier if he had included the IMP in the Figure descriptions.
 

engineermike

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
4,173
Reaction score
3,549
Location
La
Vehicle(s)
2018 GTPP A10
You go ahead a lower your compression, and try running 28* of advance at 2000RPM like those graphs indicate.... .
Why would I do that when my boundary conditions are different than the ones in the graph?

Or listen to me, don't lower your compression, and have a good calibration for the many reputable tuners for the Coyote that actually know what they are doing and talking about. .
That would sound like a good idea if I didn't know what I know about compression and combustion dynamics plus the failure rate of professionally "tuned" supercharged coyotes.

Don't cut my sentences in half, and they will make sense. .
I re-read your sentence and I don't see where truncating it for brevity changed the meaning. Apologies if you feel differently.

End gasses, as in the part of the charge that has not combusted yet....
Ok, which is just what I described in post 102: "...they did not appear to model the temperature of the unburned air/fuel beyond the flame front, which is where detonation occurs..." Your response was, "...You don't seem to understand this, detonation is in the end gases...."
 
Last edited:

Sponsored

OP
OP
smann

smann

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Threads
83
Messages
550
Reaction score
92
Location
Toronto
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT PP
Wow this thread really turned into something else LOL

In other news.. My engine re-builder quoted me $11,000 for a rebuild using the stock block
I think that's way too much

I am finally going to get this going.. Got a good build coming along but need advice on the rebuild.
I am not the most technical person when it comes to engine re building

The argument though... I won't be lowering my compression I'm sticking to stock levels
Gotta admit I learned a lot reading through those 7 pages haha
 

80FoxCoupe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Threads
47
Messages
4,386
Reaction score
4,336
Location
Cincy, OH
Vehicle(s)
16 GT, 80 Fox
Wow this thread really turned into something else LOL

In other news.. My engine re-builder quoted me $11,000 for a rebuild using the stock block
I think that's way too much

I am finally going to get this going.. Got a good build coming along but need advice on the rebuild.
I am not the most technical person when it comes to engine re building

The argument though... I won't be lowering my compression I'm sticking to stock levels
Gotta admit I learned a lot reading through those 7 pages haha
Post up the proposal.
 
OP
OP
smann

smann

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Threads
83
Messages
550
Reaction score
92
Location
Toronto
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT PP
Post up the proposal.
Just quoted me over the phone. He said it may go over
Maybe hes gold plating my engine.. Who knows

I'm going to reach out to another builder just down the street from me.

I'll post that proposal

I'll be sitting on a Whipple soon and a bunch of other parts.. Got a full build coming just need to get this engine sorted.
 

Sponsored

80FoxCoupe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2018
Threads
47
Messages
4,386
Reaction score
4,336
Location
Cincy, OH
Vehicle(s)
16 GT, 80 Fox

Torinate

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2018
Threads
82
Messages
1,913
Reaction score
852
Location
Ontario
Vehicle(s)
2016 GT Convertible
Yea... Canadian $$$...
FB7E09F5-F345-4A53-B89F-151C2DE17C7E.png


Plus the 13% taxes on that. Not positive about shipping either. BUT they do have a 5% off sale!
 

ahl395

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Threads
42
Messages
2,806
Reaction score
1,210
Location
NJ
First Name
Allan
Vehicle(s)
2017 Mustang GT, 2006 Infiniti G35X
If they're doing all the labor, 11k isnt that bad. I just spent about the same, including a new stock block. Cheapest place I could find within a 3hr radius that was reputable.
Sponsored

 
 




Top