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2021 Mach 1 CONFIRMED in Leaked Ford Document!!!

CurtisH

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So why wouldn’t they just do a 3.5L NA? They could, but at this point, they do not have a 3.5L RWD NA engine in their portfolio. They do have a 3.3L, but not a 3.5L.
Ford offers a 3.5L RWD NA in the Transit.
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martinjlm

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Ok no kidding you can with enough money use hybrid tech to improve performance. I was never asking if it could be done or had been done. The question is will it be done for more than an incremental improvement? I think the answer is no. Not to say they won't do it and market it to appeal to someone. I really think it is cost prohibitive in the sense that to get real improvements, you will need to spend quite a bit to get it. That is why only a few very expensive cars have it. As for Tim K....FCA and every other car manufacturer need to comply with local C02 regs in Europe especially if they want to continue to see some of their models. I would bet that they are doing it for that more than performance.
Note - FCA doesn’t sell many if any Hemi-powered vehicles in Europe

Tim K.: [paraphrasing] At FCA we see electrification as the new “fuel injection”. We will use electrification for performance enhancement, not just fuel economy.

Me: You already have mild hybrids on some 5.7L applications. Are you suggesting we’ll see hybrids on other Hemis?

Tim K: Yes. Electrification is the new fuel injection.

John McElroy was also part of the discussion, and there were several other topics discussed. When that exchange was over, and Tim walked away to talk with someone else, John and I discussed the meaning of “electrification is the new fuel injection”. We both came to the conclusion that he meant when fuel injection first came to market, most people that it was too expensive and complicated to replace carburetors. Then John had to leave to co-moderate the panel discussion for the event.

In the picture below, John is on the left and is co-moderating the future of performance discussion between Ed Piatek (C8 Chief Engineer), Carl Widmann, (I think you know who he is), and Tim Kuniskis black shirt, 2nd from right). Tim’s opening remarks included his “electrification is the new fuel injection” comments. He was apparently rehearsing it in the conversation with me and John. His explanation of what that meant was spot on with what John and I concluded.

TLDR - FCA will be selling vehicles with hybrid Hemis in the US. Has nothing to do with Europe CO2.

3BEF56F7-7F69-463F-BD0E-17EB847616C4.jpeg
 

shogun32

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Spork3245

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Where did I say performance could not be achieved with using hybrid tech? Where did I ask to have a list of examples? I actually stated it could be done but MPG's were the main reason to use that tech.

Never said they would not make a hybrid Mustang....only stated that it would either be overpriced for any performance or MPG gains. Are you thinking the hybrid Mustang will cost in line with a Bullitt or a GT350 and have far better performance and MPG gains than what I mentioned?
Your post suggested hybrids exist mostly to increase mpg and that performance boosts were limited. I stated that it depends on the set-up then provided examples of each spectrum for clarity.
$55-65k (my quoted price) isn’t exactly inline with an MSRP Bullitt. Where did you mention performance besides “not much”? Ford has already stated 30-35mpg for their hybrid Mustang iirc, as well as performance equal to or exceeding the current GT at the time of its release. As such, I stated ~30mpg+ and performance falling between the GT and GT500. I have no idea where you are extrapolating your data from, certainly not Ford’s own comments or real world examples of performance based hybrid systems.

Here’s your post for a quick reminder of what you stated regarding performance and mpg in hybrid systems:
Not really sure how Ford will use a hybrid in a Mustang and keep the costs down in line with performance gains. Isn't the role of a hybrid system to boost MPG more so than boost performance? Not saying you won't get some gains from the electric motor, but I believe most hybrids exist to boost MPG...at least as the big reason to use them. I would only be interested in a hybrid Mustang if the performance was much higher, across the RPM range. If it is just going to cut a tenth or two and add 5 MPG as well as adding 10grand or more, no thanks.
The insinuation was clearly that hybrid systems barely boost mpg and aren’t effective at increasing performance. So, I replied mentioning it depends on the set-up, and (again), provided examples:
It depends on the set-up in regards to power vs mpg. In a prius the focus is obviously mpg, in an NSX and Porsche 918 the focus is performance.
You then responded with something about pricing of the two high-end examples and how Ford isn’t going to do a hybrid and will skip straight to electric... despite the company’s own statements.

Will the Mach1 be a hybrid? No idea. Is it plausible? Yes. Could it have performance exceeding the current GT and provide a substantial increase to mpg while costing less than a GT500 which will likely be the “step above” it? Also, yes.
 

IronG

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Note - FCA doesn’t sell many if any Hemi-powered vehicles in Europe

Tim K.: [paraphrasing] At FCA we see electrification as the new “fuel injection”. We will use electrification for performance enhancement, not just fuel economy.

Me: You already have mild hybrids on some 5.7L applications. Are you suggesting we’ll see hybrids on other Hemis?

Tim K: Yes. Electrification is the new fuel injection.

John McElroy was also part of the discussion, and there were several other topics discussed. When that exchange was over, and Tim walked away to talk with someone else, John and I discussed the meaning of “electrification is the new fuel injection”. We both came to the conclusion that he meant when fuel injection first came to market, most people that it was too expensive and complicated to replace carburetors. Then John had to leave to co-moderate the panel discussion for the event.

In the picture below, John is on the left and is co-moderating the future of performance discussion between Ed Piatek (C8 Chief Engineer), Carl Widmann, (I think you know who he is), and Tim Kuniskis black shirt, 2nd from right). Tim’s opening remarks included his “electrification is the new fuel injection” comments. He was apparently rehearsing it in the conversation with me and John. His explanation of what that meant was spot on with what John and I concluded.

TLDR - FCA will be selling vehicles with hybrid Hemis in the US. Has nothing to do with Europe CO2.

3BEF56F7-7F69-463F-BD0E-17EB847616C4.jpeg
Did they say when or what the performance gains they were shooting for?
 

IronG

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Your post suggested hybrids exist mostly to increase mpg and that performance boosts were limited. I stated that it depends on the set-up then provided examples of each spectrum for clarity.
$55-65k (my quoted price) isn’t exactly inline with an MSRP Bullitt. Where did you mention performance besides “not much”? Ford has already stated 30-35mpg for their hybrid Mustang iirc, as well as performance equal to or exceeding the current GT at the time of its release. As such, I stated ~30mpg+ and performance falling between the GT and GT500. I have no idea where you are extrapolating your data from, certainly not Ford’s own comments or real world examples of performance based hybrid systems.

Here’s your post for a quick reminder of what you stated regarding performance and mpg in hybrid systems:


The insinuation was clearly that hybrid systems barely boost mpg and aren’t effective at increasing performance. So, I replied mentioning it depends on the set-up, and (again), provided examples:


You then responded with something about pricing of the two high-end examples and how Ford isn’t going to do a hybrid and will skip straight to electric... despite the company’s own statements.

Will the Mach1 be a hybrid? No idea. Is it plausible? Yes. Could it have performance exceeding the current GT and provide a substantial increase to mpg while costing less than a GT500 which will likely be the “step above” it? Also, yes.
Obviously you read way to far into what I said from my very short blurb. I guess that is a consequence of posting in a forum. Your interpretation of what I said is pretty far off on what I was commenting on. I can see where you could twist it enough to make your assumptions though. The point I was trying to make was that for the cost, the benefits of a hybrid Mustang will either be very modest improvements or very costly with hopefully improved benefits. I was not intending to get into a debate on whether or not you can use hybrid tech to improve performance, MPG or both and if there were examples of both. The other thought article I was trying to convey was that if the improvements from going hybrid were small and the cost was more than non-hybrid, I would not be interested. If there is true value in spending more to get a hybrid equipped Mustang, I would at least be open to it. That was really the only points I was trying to make.
 

martinjlm

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Did they say when or what the performance gains they were shooting for?
Unfortunately they were not in the mood to make my job easier. :lipssealed:

The amount of performance gain will be impacted primarily by the capacity of the electric motor. No one (not GM, Ford, or FCA) is telling us the size of the electric motors they are planning for performance applications. The Ford Explorer Hybrid has a 35 kW electric motor. I would expect the same or larger for Mustang, unless there are severe packaging restrictions.
 

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martinjlm

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If we take the Aviator as an example......

3.0 TT V6
400hp
415lb/ft

3.0 TT V6 Hybrid (GT)
494hp
640lb/ft

:rockon:
Exactly. The Aviator Grand Touring (Lincoln doesn’t openly call it a plug-in hybrid) has a 75 kW electric motor. I didn’t reference this wrt a Mustang Hybrid because being a plug-in hybrid, it will have a more powerful e-motor than a non-plugin hybrid. So the Mustang will likely have an e-motor with more than 35 kW, but probably less than 75 kW
 

martinjlm

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If we take the Aviator as an example......

3.0 TT V6
400hp
415lb/ft
0-60: 6.0s
1/4 mi: 14.6s


3.0 TT V6 Hybrid (GT)
494hp
640lb/ft
0-60: 5.0s
1/4 mi: 13.6s


:rockon:
Performance measures added in red, not because people should be taking their Aviator to the strip, but to provide an indication how much performance can be impacted by electrification. In this case, a full second in both measures.
 
 




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