Another 2020 GT350 engine failure

[Bluelightning]

We know that starting with 2019+ Voodoo engines sharing blocks/components with Predators. Bore and Stroke are the same for both. So, I assume they sharing the same cylinder heads as well.
I've searched for GT500 engine failure and couldn't find any. However, I found four instances of 2020 GT350 engine failure. I'm trying to apply logic to this pattern. The most noticeable difference between this engines is a crank shaft. Voodoo have flat plane and Predator cross plane. When Ford developed Voodoo the prototype was Ferrari's engine from 458 Italia with flat plane crank. Ford chooses different crankshaft layout for Voodoo(U-D-U-D) than one from Ferrari(U - D - D - U). So, why Ford decided to do different crankshaft layout? I found the below discussion very interesting and deserve attention:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=401468

The different crank layout is due to the intake. Ferrari basically uses two intakes and throttle bodies on their motor. For packaging purposes on the 350, this was not possible so they changed the order on the crank to be able to use one intake. At least that's how I understand it.

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[CoolHandLuke]

this is a great point. But, we still have to take into account that the same idiots, bad salesmen and bad technicians found at Ford dealerships are also found at GM and Dodge dealers. Yet, those motors are not failing as frequently as the Voodoo. I think the Voodoo is a special motor that requires a different level of attention and break in.

I've been a member at the camaro and hellcat forums for a long time and I haven't heard of motors failing there with the same frequency that we get here. The Voodoo is special in many ways and maybe that specialness is what's making it more fragile then the engines in the Hellcat and the ZL1.

My 2019R has only 20 miles on it, when I take the cover off this spring I'm going to ride it up to 6500 RPMs and do a lot of engine breaking, it seems to me that the Voodoo needs this special type of treatment.
My Hellcat and my ZL1 1LE were kept under 4,000 RPMs during break in and they don't burn any oil, they run and pull like freight trains. Sounds like the Voodoo wants the opposite.

Agreed that the flat plane crank design is very unique and maybe a little temperamental... I also believe that the oil pump could be the achilles heal of these motors. It would support the theory of never revving these things out when cold. Good to hear that you'll utilize engine braking as part of the break in process. I had an old engine builder tell me years ago that engine braking is crucial for proper break in... Who knows.

 

[bauern]

Does anyone know if the parts numbers are the same for the intake valves, exhaust valves, valve springs, and valve spring retainers between the GT350 and GT500? I tried to search the parts myself and only found a generic responses for the 5.2 liter “modular” engine. My suspicion is that if the GT350’s and GT500’s use the same respective parts and there is a MY2020 “bad batch”, then there would also be possibly a few complaints for GT500 owners with engine failures due to the valve train. At the end of the day, my father and I had several conversations years ago about engine harmonics. In those conversations he used to say, “Vibration is not your friend.”

Just my 2 cents.

There are some differences in the valve train between the two heads. The Predator has different intake valve springs to handle the boost and different exhaust valves and seats due to heat. Generally (not 100%), if you replace the "GR3Z" prefix of the Voodoo part number with "KR3Z" you'll get the Predator part. If the change draws a blank, you can assume they both use the Voodoo part.

 

[Questortapes74]

There are some differences in the valve train between the two heads. The Predator has different intake valve springs to handle the boost and different exhaust valves and seats due to heat. Generally (not 100%), if you replace the "GR3Z" prefix of the Voodoo part number with "KR3Z" you'll get the Predator part. If the change draws a blank, you can assume they both use the Voodoo part.

Appreciate the response. The heat tolerance makes perfect sense for the difference in the parts.

Regards

 

[Cobra Jet]

Only Ford knows who they source parts from. Supplier chains are kept very secret. So even if the valves came from different sources they’d have the same part number. But it could be the valve or the retainer too, or both. I imagine Ford would rather just replace engines as needed rather than just replace all at once, like Porsche did with the GT3 a few years ago when some were throwing rods due to a faulty rod cap bolt and stud, going through the engine cases and making them into fireballs. They also had issues with the diamond coating on the cam followers flaking off and they covered that too, no questions asked. Now that was all paid for by sales of the Macan and Cayenne, which are their big money makers...not the 911 sales.

meh... if one wants to dig into the depths of the web, automotive supplier info can be found and if it’s out on the web, then it’s “public” (by mistake or not, it’s public if you, me and anyone else can see it).

*Poof* public info online; supplier info for the S550 (*as of 2015)

 

[Cobra Jet]

Let me put my journalist hat on. Bore and stroke remained unchanged to previous years which is 94mm x 93mm. The GT500 also has that same bore and stroke. Ford never mentioned in any press junkets or media events that they changed the cylinder head in the GT350 in 2019 or up.

Page 1 of the attached doc contains the top level engine specs for the 2020 GT350 and GT500 (if anyone is interested in seeing the info on a single layout for comparison sakes).

 

[Shockm]

I suspect that in a large portion of the engine failures, operator error was the cause. Either people revving the piss out of their cold motors or running low on oil without knowing it. I'm also skeptical of the morons at the dealerships who (yes, I'm saying it) don't have the common sense to torque oil filters correctly (leaks), reinsert a drain plug correctly (leaks) or even add the correct viscosity or quantity of oil to to the car. How many oil/lube techs don't know that the Vodoo motor takes 10 quarts of oil? So right when you leave the dealership you could be starting off 1.5 - 2.0 quarts low. Spin it up to redline and then bam... someone please call a flatbed.

Yesterday, I watched the guy who has the "Rated R Cars" youtube channel check his oil with the dipstick handle angled lower than tip where the oil was dripping down the dipstick. He never wiped the dipstick and then reinserted to get a clean read either. His response was, "yup, oil level looks good". Really? Also, his video documenting his engine issues appeared to be shot after leaving the dealership with a fresh oil change. Coincidence?

How about the people running E85 tunes and superchargers? One bad tune in combination with shitty fuel can lean out the fuel delivery, cause detonation and grenade the motor in a heartbeat before the onboard diagnostics can retard the timing to compensate. Finally, how about the countless test drives before people bought their cars where some ignorant salesperson tells a customer to go ahead and hammer the car to see what she can do.... while the motor is still cold. Did I mention the countless members who state that they never take the car past 2k rpms when the motor is cold or they never take their car past 4k rpms during the break in period.... technically, I'd rather slightly over rev a cold motor than lug the engine. In addition, when you never spin a new engine (like the Voodoo) up past 4k rpms for roughly the first 1000 miles, do you really think your piston rings are thanking you for it?

I'm not saying there isn't a potential defect with these motors but what I am saying is that there are a lot of fucking idiots running around the universe who don't know that they don't know. If we could strip away the idiots who caused their own engine issues and isolate those who know how to drive and take care of this type of vehicle, I bet the engine defects coming out of the factory would be few and far between.

Nuff said.

 

[Montoya]

this is a great point. But, we still have to take into account that the same idiots, bad salesmen and bad technicians found at Ford dealerships are also found at GM and Dodge dealers. Yet, those motors are not failing as frequently as the Voodoo. I think the Voodoo is a special motor that requires a different level of attention and break in.

I've been a member at the camaro and hellcat forums for a long time and I haven't heard of motors failing there with the same frequency that we get here. The Voodoo is special in many ways and maybe that specialness is what's making it more fragile then the engines in the Hellcat and the ZL1.

My 2019R has only 20 miles on it, when I take the cover off this spring I'm going to ride it up to 6500 RPMs and do a lot of engine breaking, it seems to me that the Voodoo needs this special type of treatment.
My Hellcat and my ZL1 1LE were kept under 4,000 RPMs during break in and they don't burn any oil, they run and pull like freight trains. Sounds like the Voodoo wants the opposite.

Go ahead and do that. I did exactly that to seat the rings. Engine failed at 720 miles. So much for special care and handling during break in. Just say’n.

 

[LFG_Cory]

this is a great point. But, we still have to take into account that the same idiots, bad salesmen and bad technicians found at Ford dealerships are also found at GM and Dodge dealers. Yet, those motors are not failing as frequently as the Voodoo. I think the Voodoo is a special motor that requires a different level of attention and break in.

I've been a member at the camaro and hellcat forums for a long time and I haven't heard of motors failing there with the same frequency that we get here. The Voodoo is special in many ways and maybe that specialness is what's making it more fragile then the engines in the Hellcat and the ZL1.

My 2019R has only 20 miles on it, when I take the cover off this spring I'm going to ride it up to 6500 RPMs and do a lot of engine breaking, it seems to me that the Voodoo needs this special type of treatment.
My Hellcat and my ZL1 1LE were kept under 4,000 RPMs during break in and they don't burn any oil, they run and pull like freight trains. Sounds like the Voodoo wants the opposite.

When I got my replacement engine, Ford Performance told the tech to drive it and for the first 50 mile push it up to 5k then engine brake to seat the rings. 8200 miles later and consuming very little oil.

 

[fpGT350]

FWIW, From the 2020 C8 Corvette owner's manual (I think they know something about flat plane cranks):


New Vehicle Break-In

Follow these recommended guidelines during the first 2 414 km (1,500 mi) of driving this vehicle.

Parts have a break-in period and performance will be better in the long run.

During the first 800 km (500 mi), engine torque will be limited in low gears.

For the first 322 km (200 mi):

• To break in new tires, drive at moderate speeds and avoid hard cornering.
• New brake linings also need a break-in period. Avoid making hard stops. This is recommended every time brake linings are replaced.

For the first 800 km (500 mi):

• Avoid full throttle starts and abrupt stops.
• Do not exceed 4000 rpm.
• Avoid driving at any one constant speed, fast or slow, including the use of cruise control.
• Avoid downshifting to brake or slow the vehicle when the engine speed will exceed 4000 rpm.
• Do not let the engine labor. Never lug the engine. This rule applies at all times, not just during the break-in period.

For the first 2 414 km (1,500 mi):

• Do not participate in track events, sport driving schools, or similar activities.
• Check engine oil with every refueling and add if necessary. Oil and fuel consumption may be higher than normal.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

FWIW, From the 2020 C8 Corvette owner's manual (I think they know something about flat plane cranks):


New Vehicle Break-In

Follow these recommended guidelines during the first 2 414 km (1,500 mi) of driving this vehicle.

Parts have a break-in period and performance will be better in the long run.

During the first 800 km (500 mi), engine torque will be limited in low gears.

For the first 322 km (200 mi):

• To break in new tires, drive at moderate speeds and avoid hard cornering.
• New brake linings also need a break-in period. Avoid making hard stops. This is recommended every time brake linings are replaced.

For the first 800 km (500 mi):

• Avoid full throttle starts and abrupt stops.
• Do not exceed 4000 rpm.
• Avoid driving at any one constant speed, fast or slow, including the use of cruise control.
• Avoid downshifting to brake or slow the vehicle when the engine speed will exceed 4000 rpm.
• Do not let the engine labor. Never lug the engine. This rule applies at all times, not just during the break-in period.

For the first 2 414 km (1,500 mi):

• Do not participate in track events, sport driving schools, or similar activities.
• Check engine oil with every refueling and add if necessary. Oil and fuel consumption may be higher than normal.

Unless this is the owners manual for a C8 Z06, this info means nothing...thanks for adding more confusion to the mix.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Go ahead and do that. I did exactly that to seat the rings. Engine failed at 720 miles. So much for special care and handling during break in. Just say’n.

I’m sorry about your unfortunate circumstance. Sucks big time. I know your car had only 5 miles from the dealer but out of curiosity, do you remember how many miles were on your vehicle after the vendors were done with it?

 

[Bluelightning]

Go ahead and do that. I did exactly that to seat the rings. Engine failed at 720 miles. So much for special care and handling during break in. Just say’n.

Yeah, your failure looks like it ate a valve, so nothing to do with seating the rings. I'd be interested to see if you actually get informed on what actually caused the failure.

 

[Montoya]

I’m sorry about your unfortunate circumstance. Sucks big time. I know your car had only 5 miles from the dealer but out of curiosity, do you remember how many miles were on your vehicle after the vendors were done with it?

Exactly the distance to their shop. Not one mile more, 29 miles. I put another 39 miles on it to my customer and back to the dealer (it had a check engine light)- dropped it off to have the repair done with 68 miles on the clock. My break in started after that and I was up and down the rev range until about 110 miles. So I really didn't get a 'great' break in on it before I started my journey on the way home.

Yeah, your failure looks like it ate a valve, so nothing to do with seating the rings. I'd be interested to see if you actually get informed on what actually caused the failure.

It definitely bent a valve in the #7 cylinder. I don't have any additional information.

 

[Scoobs]

We know that starting with 2019+ Voodoo engines sharing blocks/components with Predators. Bore and Stroke are the same for both. So, I assume they sharing the same cylinder heads as well.
I've searched for GT500 engine failure and couldn't find any. ...

here you go

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