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IAT'S with Whipple

Burkey

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How many of you guys are running the snorkel that whipple sells? I think it was a huge oversight to ship the kits without it in the first place.
I’m using the Velossa Tech bigmouth with the tuner style airbox/shroud. I did however take the time to make sure that the seal to the hood liner and other areas was as good as it can get.
The way Whipple supplied it, it didn’t even touch the hood liner.
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Ruiner46

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I've also discovered some things about data for IAT2 which is inaccurate and have backed this up with discussions with Dustin Whipple and Jason Etter Dept of boost. Most Whipple setups don't have a way to read accurately the Whipple IAT2 sensor data in fact it's only used by the PCM and not setup to display on a gauge or read out. Anyone with an Ngauge or OBD2 scanner that find a PID for IAT2 and thinks this is real data is mistaken. The IAT2 PID read this way is inferred data from other sensors and not from the Whipple sensor. The trend on this data is actually very close to accurate at 80-100F but as the temps go above 90 the data lags behind greatly against a dedicated sensor and readout. At 110 its @ 15 degrees off ( showing lower) and the spread continues from there. I have logs of this to prove it as well.
Roh92cp, I appreciate all of the things you've done to research IAT and mods to improve it and I have followed along with all that you've done. However, I disagree with your statement above about the Whipple sensor data, and I think we've even had this discussion before.

It is probably true and easily believable that the Whipple IAT2 is not accurate, and I'll explain why. However, it is not true at all that the data from the IAT2 PID is not real data, or inferred in any way from any other sensors. I have verified this on the OBD2 PID I use by unplugging the sensor and watching the PID data rail to a value instantly. It is obviously coming from the sensor I unplugged in the manifold. I have also experimented with IAT based timing retard and seen the timing changes I have made expressed when the temperature on that PID crossed the thresholds that I put in with HPTuners. I can say that the PID didn't exist in my torque app until some kind of update at some point, so maybe it was more recently discovered than when you talked to Dustin and Jason.

Now, the real reason the Whipple sensor is inaccurate is because of the transfer function that they created in the tune. The function is not a smooth curve, and right around 135 or so, the curve makes some weird transitions, and it looks like it was flattened and supposed to read as higher temps in general. Most transfer functions I have seen are usually smooth curves, and this one appears to be manipulated. Perhaps Whipple did this for a reason. Here is the transfer function curve pulled from my 16 Whipple tune:

MCT tfunc.PNG


By comparison, here is the factory MAF IAT sensor transfer function:

IAT tf.PNG


It is also true that the PID is slow, but that does not in any way mean that the data used by the PCM is slow. Some PID's just have a slower sample rate. Temperature is usually slow to change, so most temperature PIDs don't sample very fast. All that being said, I trust your ZT sensor setup more than anything else, but the tune relies on the Whipple sensor data and the PCM uses the values that are the same as those seen on the PID.
 

Roh92cp

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Roh92cp, I appreciate all of the things you've done to research IAT and mods to improve it and I have followed along with all that you've done. However, I disagree with your statement above about the Whipple sensor data, and I think we've even had this discussion before.

It is probably true and easily believable that the Whipple IAT2 is not accurate, and I'll explain why. However, it is not true at all that the data from the IAT2 PID is not real data, or inferred in any way from any other sensors. I have verified this on the OBD2 PID I use by unplugging the sensor and watching the PID data rail to a value instantly. It is obviously coming from the sensor I unplugged in the manifold. I have also experimented with IAT based timing retard and seen the timing changes I have made expressed when the temperature on that PID crossed the thresholds that I put in with HPTuners. I can say that the PID didn't exist in my torque app until some kind of update at some point, so maybe it was more recently discovered than when you talked to Dustin and Jason.

Now, the real reason the Whipple sensor is inaccurate is because of the transfer function that they created in the tune. The function is not a smooth curve, and right around 135 or so, the curve makes some weird transitions, and it looks like it was flattened and supposed to read as higher temps in general. Most transfer functions I have seen are usually smooth curves, and this one appears to be manipulated. Perhaps Whipple did this for a reason. Here is the transfer function curve pulled from my 16 Whipple tune:

MCT tfunc.PNG


By comparison, here is the factory MAF IAT sensor transfer function:

IAT tf.PNG


It is also true that the PID is slow, but that does not in any way mean that the data used by the PCM is slow. Some PID's just have a slower sample rate. Temperature is usually slow to change, so most temperature PIDs don't sample very fast. All that being said, I trust your ZT sensor setup more than anything else, but the tune relies on the Whipple sensor data and the PCM uses the values that are the same as those seen on the PID.
Dustin explained to me the PID assigned was not meant to be read out on an Ngauge or OBD2 scanner and display real accurate data, but maybe with HP Tuners you have different access, not sure about that. I can say that the data from the
IAT2 PID (whipple sensor) as displayed on Ngauge and IATF PID with breakout harness also displayed from Ngauge are both lagging way behind by 10-15 degrees. It's not just a delay because I've watched them together climb for 15 minutes while idling and both are always lagging compared to the ZT-2 sensor.

Here is a data log showing the difference between the breakout harness (iat2) and the more accurate ZT-2 data (user2v)

log-1561603995
 

Ruiner46

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What I'm saying is that it's two things. Looking at your log, the PID for temperature updates about 5 times slower than your zt-2. On top of that, the transfer function curve is pushed down so the temperature readings are lower overall. With HPTuners, the IAT2 does log much faster than the OBD2 PID. However, I usually keep an eye on IAT2 while driving with my Android phone Torque App, and it gives me the same data as HPTuners, just with a slower sample rate.

What I'm also saying is that what Dustin told you WAS true, but the OBD2 PID for Ford's IAT2 has been discovered and some apps can log it now. Whipple uses Ford's supercharger operating system for their tune, and that tune uses the same IAT2 sensor, and PID. I don't know anything about the Ngauge, so that might still be the wrong PID or something.
 

Roh92cp

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What I'm saying is that it's two things. Looking at your log, the PID for temperature updates about 5 times slower than your zt-2. On top of that, the transfer function curve is pushed down so the temperature readings are lower overall. With HPTuners, the IAT2 does log much faster than the OBD2 PID. However, I usually keep an eye on IAT2 while driving with my Android phone Torque App, and it gives me the same data as HPTuners, just with a slower sample rate.

What I'm also saying is that what Dustin told you WAS true, but the OBD2 PID for Ford's IAT2 has been discovered and some apps can log it now. Whipple uses Ford's supercharger operating system for their tune, and that tune uses the same IAT2 sensor, and PID. I don't know anything about the Ngauge, so that might still be the wrong PID or something.
Even when the temps are static the iatf PID always is lower so I don't think that just an update or lagging issue.
 

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Ruiner46

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Even when the temps are static the iatf PID always is lower so I don't think that just an update or lagging issue.
That's what I mean by saying the transfer function curve is pushed down. The temps always read a little lower than the actual temp because the transfer from volts to temp is wrong.

The lagging update is different, the stair step pattern in your log shows when it updates. Every time it makes a step, that is a new sample. You can see in the log how much faster the custom PID for the ZT sensor is because the steps are closer together. Hence why I said there are two issues making it inaccurate. The transfer function from volts to temp, and the sample rate.
 

17gt3black

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Some really good point made here, and for sure ambient controls the baseline for IAT2. Ambient air temp is the constant cooling force through the HE and air inlet and of course the engine heat and air compression from supercharger is the opposing force. Lowering IAT's is something I've been working on and tracking for years with my whipple setup. I've come up with some pretty interesting and affective methods some easy and some more complex to control/lower IAT1 and IAT2.

Lowering IAT1 is very important to lower IAT2, that's why a true cold air kits have been so popular. Imagine sucking in 200 degree engine exposed air as opposed to 100 degree air with ambient being the same. The effects on IAT2 are huge because half of the cooling system is drawing in hot air, but the other half of the cooling system the HE/IC water running through the core is still giving the ambient and airspeed over the HE cooling. For this I have come up with the whipple closed Airbox system with front Ram air feed from Velocatech Big Mouth cone in front of the grill. With this setup my IAT1 at the inlet/MAF is now 2 degrees above ambient cruising and 4-5 above slow driving and stopped now takes like 15 minutes to get 20 degrees above ambient. Before IAT1 was 4-5 cruising so not much change there because air moving into the engine bay, but at low speeds and idle it's dramatic. I use to see 80-100 over ambient easy idling after 10 minutes, and low speeds stop and go easily where 20/30 above.

I've also discovered some things about data for IAT2 which is inaccurate and have backed this up with discussions with Dustin Whipple and Jason Etter Dept of boost. Most Whipple setups don't have a way to read accurately the Whipple IAT2 sensor data in fact it's only used by the PCM and not setup to display on a gauge or read out. Anyone with an Ngauge or OBD2 scanner that find a PID for IAT2 and thinks this is real data is mistaken. The IAT2 PID read this way is inferred data from other sensors and not from the Whipple sensor. The trend on this data is actually very close to accurate at 80-100F but as the temps go above 90 the data lags behind greatly against a dedicated sensor and readout. At 110 its @ 15 degrees off ( showing lower) and the spread continues from there. I have logs of this to prove it as well.

Breakout harness which is used for most aftermarket calibration LUND and PBD, VMP (and what I use now) use this setup is also not accurate in almost the same way as above inferred data.

I have ZT-2 dedicated IAT2 sensor (very accurate) that is read out on the Ngauge. I've also tested that for accuracy against a PLX setup to make sure it was good data. I also have water temp sensors on the HE outlet and the IC outlet to track water temps in the IC cooling system (basically a rolling lab) and found some interesting data there. MY system has been upgraded to a 1" system including bungs and inlet out let into the HE and IC with huge EMP Stewart pump so I have a very stable system and IAT2 output. My IAT2 with my setup almost never change much from open throttle to closed and moving slow or fast. I'm always somewhere around 5-25 degrees (WOT or idle) above ambient so 70-95 F IAT2 on a 70 degree day.

Things that have made a significant reduction in IAT2 have been.

1. MFP phenolic spacer aprox. 25-30 degree reduction in IAT2. This product blew me away and was the last thing I did to my setup.MFP-Phenolic-Spacers-for-11-Coyote-Mustang-GT-and-F150

2. My closed airbox front feed snorkel setup. Huge difference in low speed driving stop and go and idling. Not as much when throttle is open WOT.

3. Bigger HE/IC and flow rate (large pump) lowers IAT2 somewhat, but moreover stabilizes the temps so they just don't move a lot after this. Sheer amount of fluid transfer overpowers the engine and supercharged air heat.

4. Hood vents and open front grill.
IMG_1812.JPG
IMG_1818.JPG
IMG_1931.JPG
IMG_1468.JPG
IMG_1761.JPG
IMG_2079.JPG
IMG_2061.JPG
IMG_2934.JPG
IMG_2932.JPG
 

17gt3black

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Running the PLX gauge and the mfp spacers along with the killer chiller here with both the drag valve and the 3 way way to give me option to still run it threw heat exchanger when it get colder out. that spacer and chiller night and day under ambient.
 

hamzah596

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Some really good point made here, and for sure ambient controls the baseline for IAT2. Ambient air temp is the constant cooling force through the HE and air inlet and of course the engine heat and air compression from supercharger is the opposing force. Lowering IAT's is something I've been working on and tracking for years with my whipple setup. I've come up with some pretty interesting and affective methods some easy and some more complex to control/lower IAT1 and IAT2.

Lowering IAT1 is very important to lower IAT2, that's why a true cold air kits have been so popular. Imagine sucking in 200 degree engine exposed air as opposed to 100 degree air with ambient being the same. The effects on IAT2 are huge because half of the cooling system is drawing in hot air, but the other half of the cooling system the HE/IC water running through the core is still giving the ambient and airspeed over the HE cooling. For this I have come up with the whipple closed Airbox system with front Ram air feed from Velocatech Big Mouth cone in front of the grill. With this setup my IAT1 at the inlet/MAF is now 2 degrees above ambient cruising and 4-5 above slow driving and stopped now takes like 15 minutes to get 20 degrees above ambient. Before IAT1 was 4-5 cruising so not much change there because air moving into the engine bay, but at low speeds and idle it's dramatic. I use to see 80-100 over ambient easy idling after 10 minutes, and low speeds stop and go easily where 20/30 above.

I've also discovered some things about data for IAT2 which is inaccurate and have backed this up with discussions with Dustin Whipple and Jason Etter Dept of boost. Most Whipple setups don't have a way to read accurately the Whipple IAT2 sensor data in fact it's only used by the PCM and not setup to display on a gauge or read out. Anyone with an Ngauge or OBD2 scanner that find a PID for IAT2 and thinks this is real data is mistaken. The IAT2 PID read this way is inferred data from other sensors and not from the Whipple sensor. The trend on this data is actually very close to accurate at 80-100F but as the temps go above 90 the data lags behind greatly against a dedicated sensor and readout. At 110 its @ 15 degrees off ( showing lower) and the spread continues from there. I have logs of this to prove it as well.

Breakout harness which is used for most aftermarket calibration LUND and PBD, VMP (and what I use now) use this setup is also not accurate in almost the same way as above inferred data.

I have ZT-2 dedicated IAT2 sensor (very accurate) that is read out on the Ngauge. I've also tested that for accuracy against a PLX setup to make sure it was good data. I also have water temp sensors on the HE outlet and the IC outlet to track water temps in the IC cooling system (basically a rolling lab) and found some interesting data there. MY system has been upgraded to a 1" system including bungs and inlet out let into the HE and IC with huge EMP Stewart pump so I have a very stable system and IAT2 output. My IAT2 with my setup almost never change much from open throttle to closed and moving slow or fast. I'm always somewhere around 5-25 degrees (WOT or idle) above ambient so 70-95 F IAT2 on a 70 degree day.

Things that have made a significant reduction in IAT2 have been.

1. MFP phenolic spacer aprox. 25-30 degree reduction in IAT2. This product blew me away and was the last thing I did to my setup.MFP-Phenolic-Spacers-for-11-Coyote-Mustang-GT-and-F150

2. My closed airbox front feed snorkel setup. Huge difference in low speed driving stop and go and idling. Not as much when throttle is open WOT.

3. Bigger HE/IC and flow rate (large pump) lowers IAT2 somewhat, but moreover stabilizes the temps so they just don't move a lot after this. Sheer amount of fluid transfer overpowers the engine and supercharged air heat.

4. Hood vents and open front grill.
IMG_1812.JPG
IMG_1818.JPG
IMG_1931.JPG
IMG_1468.JPG
IMG_1761.JPG
IMG_2079.JPG
IMG_2061.JPG
IMG_2934.JPG
IMG_2932.JPG
What kind of heat shield did you use?? I’m looking to do this
 

Roh92cp

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The material I used is double bubble insulation sold in rolls. Alum tap is used with layers to make it semi ridged and gives the ability to form it as needed. I used that airbox for 3 years without any real determination.
 

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The real mystery is how you got the airbox in there without destroying the wrap that covers the big hole in the side of the box, up next to the fender. It's extremely tight.
 

Roh92cp

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It was bad for me once the inlet pipe was removed from the throttle body.
 

Roh92cp

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It was bad for me once the inlet pipe was removed from the throttle body.
 

Roh92cp

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It was bad for me once the inlet pipe was removed from the throttle body.
 

Stymee

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Are these cooler IAT2 for street racing or 1/2 mile hits?

I don't street race of hammer the car on the street very often so for me I’m not that concerned, now if I was drag racing at the track I’ ld just add an ice tank

Problem solved, ice, run, drain, repeat or just add a killer chiller
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