GTPP2 vs GT350 Caranddriver

[saleen367]

What year was the GT350R in the comparison lap time? Ford has been updating the GT350’s since 2016. The current GT350 supposedly received upgrades and better than ever while the GTPP2 is just a GT. Ford is trying hard for people to pay premium and buy the GT350 over the GTPP2. They had to open up the gap somehow to justify the performance and value difference.

2015 was the 1st MY for the GT350 first off. GT350R's were unchanged until MY2020. MY2019 was the 1st update on the GT350.

Lightning lap has never compared those two cars in the same year so you're talking different conditions and different drivers. Each car is driven by multiple writers and the best times are taken from each. If you've ever read an article or listened to a podcast from the writers involved this means that the fastest driver may not be in the car when the weather, track temp, and vehicle condition are optimal for the best possible lap time.

The GT350R was run back in 2016 while the Performance Pack 2 wasn't run until 2018.

Here's an excerpt from the article about the Performance Pack 2 and just how sticky those tires really are.

According to the results on Lightning lap 2016, the GT350R went through turn 1 at less than 1.12G, failing to make their list of highest corner grip through that corner at that point in time. While I can't explain why this is, the fact of the matter is that it seemed the GT350R had less grip on this day in 2016 than the PP2 had in 2018 when it ran. I would wager that given that they both run the exact same tires on the front of the car, that particular number on the same day should be closer and certainly not lower for the GT350R. I'm guessing it wasn't the best day and time for setting an all out hero lap in the GT350R and that had it run on the same day in 2018 as the PP2 the gap would be larger than 2 seconds.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15101334/lightning-lap-2016-results-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature/

Here are both Lightning Laps ... I see nothing that stands out as to why one "should be faster" than the actual timed lap.
The 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 pulled 1.10G in the same turn(Horse Shoe) on Cup 2 tires. Should the Porsche have been faster as well? Maximum lateral grip is not an equal measure of lap times.



C&D quote; "What started as a handful of Car and Driver employees with a couple of toolboxes has grown to an army of staffers, along with factory-supplied coaches and support squads bearing more spare tires than a Rascal-scooter meet."
"As we have done since the first Lightning Lap, in 2006, C/D editors set the lap times. Each of our five drivers is assigned vehicles to lap, but we cross-check our work by cycling into one another's cars. Doing it ourselves allows us to bring you an unfiltered firsthand experience."

@saleen367 I don't know why you singled me out here, but let it be known that I'm not a detractor of the PP2, I think it's a great car for back road adventures and autocross and can deliver similar grip levels to the GT350R for 20k less. With that money saved you could most certainly makeup the horsepower deficit and probably even match it NA if you're willing. You could also solve the cooling issues it has with all of that leftover cash as well. I merely came in here to clear up 1 thing that Ford and Michelin confused the world on, that there are two different type of Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's mounted to Mustangs.

The grippiest version is the standard Cup2 mounted to the GT350R and the PP2, the GT350 get's the less sticky FP branded Cup2's so that owners who buy the GT350 still have good traction in less then ideal situations as that car is meant to be driven in a wider range of conditions than the all out top of the range GT and GT350 are.

^^^^ Purely speculative .... Even IF the compound is changed, both Cup 2's have the same wear and temp ratings. The notable difference is load rating because, after all it is a 35 aspect ratio tire (Michelin does not make "regular" Cup 2's in 295/35/19). Here is what you might have missed;

Tread width for the FR Cup 2's is .4" wider than the 305 Cup 2's on the PP2 and .1" less than the 315's on the R. Yes, both the FP305/35/19 and the FR295/35/19 are 11.4" tread width. So the MY19-20 GT350's have essentially the same tire but molded @ 6/32" vs 5.5/32" (increased tread life and water channeling capabilities), but also .4" wider at every corner.

Here's my take .... The factory PP2 is an amazing car. The factory GT350 even more amazing and it should be considering the additional investment. How much more so is up for debate, but it doesn't take much to change either one of these into even better track cars. Its all dependent on how deep one's pockets are. On any given track day (HPDE) you will find base GT's passing GT350's, Corvette's etc ... everyone has different abilities to use the tool that the manufacturer or yourself has built. We are not all Randy Probst and very few will ever experience our cars being pushed to their absolute limits ... correctly.

On the track you will most likely never encounter one of these cars with factory rubber. Most serious HPDE guys I see not only run better/bigger tires, but lighter & wider wheels. On the street, there is no where you can legally use the tires or car to their full potentials. So in the end, its all bench racing banter, unless of course Probst shows up at my front door calling me out. If that happens I can almost guarantee my day will be better than yours.

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[mavisky]

Here are both Lightning Laps ... I see nothing that stands out as to why one "should be faster" than the actual timed lap.
The 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 pulled 1.10G in the same turn(Horse Shoe) on Cup 2 tires. Should the Porsche have been faster as well? Maximum lateral grip is not an equal measure of lap times.

In 2016 they tested the 2017 GT3 RS (which was the car that was in Lightning Lap 2016, not the standard GT3) and that car pulled 1.08G on their 300ft diameter skidpad, the GT350R pulled 1.10G in the same test. It's assumed that it's figures should be higher in the lightning lap test than the GT3RS. My point was that either the temperature or track condition or skill of the assembled drivers at the time contributed to lower overall grip levels for all cars and that they all may have been down slightly on that particular day. I'm open to interpretations from you as to how the PP2 outperformed the GT350R on the same tires in that corner? Does the PP2 have more downforce than a GT350R, more tire, better suspension tuning? Or could it be that it's close enough in those regards that another contributing factor led to the GT350R performing poorly on that specific day it was tested vs another day 3 years later.

C&D quote; "What started as a handful of Car and Driver employees with a couple of toolboxes has grown to an army of staffers, along with factory-supplied coaches and support squads bearing more spare tires than a Rascal-scooter meet."
"As we have done since the first Lightning Lap, in 2006, C/D editors set the lap times. Each of our five drivers is assigned vehicles to lap, but we cross-check our work by cycling into one another's cars. Doing it ourselves allows us to bring you an unfiltered firsthand experience."

Yes, they all drive the cars. But most any test editor will tell you that production cars like the GTPP2 and to some extent even the GT350R, have one or two hero laps in them per outing for setting that preferred time. Within the groups there are variances in driver skill and capabilitiy, and the track is usually faster in the cool morning air than it is at 3pm in the hot sun when tires start getting greasy. That being said there's a narrow window to get the best driver in the bunch on the best condition tires for their run and on track in the best weather in any respective car. This is the reality of real world testing and why bench racing is an impossibility with this many variables.

In fact here is Tony Quiroga, one of the C/D editors who actually drove in the 2016 event discussing how me missed his window to set a peak laptime in the camaro he was assigned in 2017 due to the change in the temperature.



I'll accept that apology at any time.

^^^^ Purely speculative .... Even IF the compound is changed, both Cup 2's have the same wear and temp ratings. The notable difference is load rating because, after all it is a 35 aspect ratio tire (Michelin does not make "regular" Cup 2's in 295/35/19). Here is what you might have missed;

Tread width for the FR Cup 2's is .4" wider than the 305 Cup 2's on the PP2 and .1" less than the 315's on the R. Yes, both the FP305/35/19 and the FR295/35/19 are 11.4" tread width. So the MY19-20 GT350's have essentially the same tire but molded @ 6/32" vs 5.5/32" (increased tread life and water channeling capabilities), but also .4" wider at every corner.

Purely speculative my ass.

Here is a direct quote from Ford Performance's Vehicle Dynamics Engineer Steven Thompson:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/sibling-rivalry-comparing-2019-gt350-gt350r/

Although both tires share the same name, they are very different in respects to tire compound. "The GT350 for 2019 is a more aggressive compound than was found on the Super Sport tire of the previous GT350's, but not as aggressive of a compound found on the GT350R. Thompson states that, "a GT350R tire will still [have] a higher grip [versus] a base GT350, but along with that comes some things that you would expect: a bit more wear—faster wear. The GT350 base [Cup 2 tire] is a little less susceptible to grip loss with successive heat cycles because of the different compound formulation. It's better for the base 350 to offset that loss of grip between the two tires."

The contrast between the tire compounds is akin to the different tires that you see in modern day Formula 1 racing, with their different tire compounds of soft, medium, and hard. One can imagine the old Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires as being analogous to the hard compound tires, whereas the new 2019 GT350 base Cup 2 are the medium tire, while the GT350R receives the soft tire.

Although the GT350R's Cup 2 tires are the softest, Thompson says,"The GT350R tire is not going to wear out like the old F1 qualifying tires. There is still a good longevity there. It's still good on excessive heat cycles. It's the top highest grip, softest compound that we're going to put on a car. Similar to what Porsche has done with the [Michelin Pilot Sport] Cup 2 R. It's much softer, [and is] going to wear much faster than their base Cup."

I'll accept that apology at any time.

Here's my take .... The factory PP2 is an amazing car. The factory GT350 even more amazing and it should be considering the additional investment. How much more so is up for debate, but it doesn't take much to change either one of these into even better track cars. Its all dependent on how deep one's pockets are. On any given track day (HPDE) you will find base GT's passing GT350's, Corvette's etc ... everyone has different abilities to use the tool that the manufacturer or yourself has built. We are not all Randy Probst and very few will ever experience our cars being pushed to their absolute limits ... correctly.

Agreed

So in the end, its all bench racing banter, unless of course Probst shows up at my front door calling me out. If that happens I can almost guarantee my day will be better than yours.

You don't know dick all about my capabilities behind the wheel of my vehicle. My wager is that you're just as wrong about that as you have been about everything else so far. They always say you can tell when soemeone is losing an argument when they're the first to turn to personal insults.

I eagerly await your thorough and detailed rebuttal of the above. Hopefully it doesn't take another 8 days like last time.

1. Tire compounds are absolutely different and the PP2 wears GT350R Cup2 tires which are absolutely and definitively different than the FP branded Cup 2's on 2019+ GT350's. This directly leads to the PP2 performing better in corners than the GT350 with the new FP Cup2 tires in the initial comparison test, but losing on the track over all.
2. Multiple variables within the capabilities of the drivers in the editor group and even the time of the day in which that car is lapped can effect it's overall lap time when discussing Lightning Lap times, especially across different years.
3. One of those variables is the most likely culprit in explaining why the laptimes are as close as they are between the GT350R and the PP2 in their respective lightning lap sessions.

 

[saleen367]

In 2016 they tested the 2017 GT3 RS (which was the car that was in Lightning Lap 2016, not the standard GT3) and that car pulled 1.08G on their 300ft diameter skidpad, the GT350R pulled 1.10G in the same test. It's assumed that it's figures should be higher in the lightning lap test than the GT3RS. My point was that either the temperature or track condition or skill of the assembled drivers at the time contributed to lower overall grip levels for all cars and that they all may have been down slightly on that particular day. I'm open to interpretations from you as to how the PP2 outperformed the GT350R on the same tires in that corner? Does the PP2 have more downforce than a GT350R, more tire, better suspension tuning? Or could it be that it's close enough in those regards that another contributing factor led to the GT350R performing poorly on that specific day it was tested vs another day 3 years later.




Yes, they all drive the cars. But most any test editor will tell you that production cars like the GTPP2 and to some extent even the GT350R, have one or two hero laps in them per outing for setting that preferred time. Within the groups there are variances in driver skill and capabilitiy, and the track is usually faster in the cool morning air than it is at 3pm in the hot sun when tires start getting greasy. That being said there's a narrow window to get the best driver in the bunch on the best condition tires for their run and on track in the best weather in any respective car. This is the reality of real world testing and why bench racing is an impossibility with this many variables.

In fact here is Tony Quiroga, one of the C/D editors who actually drove in the 2016 event discussing how me missed his window to set a peak laptime in the camaro he was assigned in 2017 due to the change in the temperature.



I'll accept that apology at any time.



Purely speculative my ass.

Here is a direct quote from Ford Performance's Vehicle Dynamics Engineer Steven Thompson:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/sibling-rivalry-comparing-2019-gt350-gt350r/



I'll accept that apology at any time.



Agreed



You don't know dick all about my capabilities behind the wheel of my vehicle. My wager is that you're just as wrong about that as you have been about everything else so far. They always say you can tell when soemeone is losing an argument when they're the first to turn to personal insults.

I eagerly await your thorough and detailed rebuttal of the above. Hopefully it doesn't take another 8 days like last time.

1. Tire compounds are absolutely different and the PP2 wears GT350R Cup2 tires which are absolutely and definitively different than the FP branded Cup 2's on 2019+ GT350's. This directly leads to the PP2 performing better in corners than the GT350 with the new FP Cup2 tires in the initial comparison test, but losing on the track over all.
2. Multiple variables within the capabilities of the drivers in the editor group and even the time of the day in which that car is lapped can effect it's overall lap time when discussing Lightning Lap times, especially across different years.
3. One of those variables is the most likely culprit in explaining why the laptimes are as close as they are between the GT350R and the PP2 in their respective lightning lap sessions.

Entertaining ... I knew you'd have the "correct " answer.

 

[mavisky]

Entertaining ... I knew you'd have the "correct " answer.

Laugh all you want, but you've been dead ass wrong about the tire differences this entire time and rather than admit it you're just going to play it off. Typical internet know-it-all who doesn't know his elbow from his asshole.

 

[saleen367]

Laugh all you want, but you've been dead ass wrong about the tire differences this entire time and rather than admit it you're just going to play it off. Typical internet know-it-all who doesn't know his elbow from his asshole.

I think its hilarious that you're getting your panties in a bunch over something so trivial. Dear God dude.

 

[mavisky]

I think its hilarious that you're getting your panties in a bunch over something so trivial. Dear God dude.

You called me out originally, posted a 376 word response at 7:24 am this morning and after I disprove your statements, suddenly it's "trivial". I get it, you can't take the L here. I can promise you there's nothing bunched up over here, I'm just laughing at how quickly your confidence turned into backpedaling.

 

[saleen367]

Proof that the GT350 Michelin Cup 2 FP are on par with the standard Cup 2's.

*** Regardless of what a "Ford engineer says" for a hotrod magazine article, I spoke with someone directly from Michelin to confirm the Cup2 FP specs. I was told what I suspected ... there is no difference in Cup2's other than dimensions. So, I waited a week and called back again, hoping to get a different technician, with perhaps a different answer .. I did, but was given the same exact data. I was reassured by a Michelin representative that Cup2 FP tires are indeed the same as the other Cup2's. Ford would probably like buyers to believe otherwise for marketing purposes and it seems to have worked for some. However, lap times don't lie. ***

View attachment 432798

 

[GT30fan]

....crazy close numbers

 

[mavisky]

Proof that the GT350 Michelin Cup 2 FP are on par with the standard Cup 2's.

View attachment 432798

2 tests 3 years apart... and you're going to take those data points over the Ford engineers own words....riiiiight.

 

[mavisky]

BTW Motor Trend is not at all a fan of the Performance Pack 2. According to this year's video it placed dead last in last year's test against this list of cars as it's competition.

• Lamborghini Huracan Performante
• Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
• Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio
• Mazda MX-5 Miata
• Honda Civic Type R
• BMW M5
• Audi TT RS
• McLaren 720S
  
• Ford Mustang GT
• Kia Stinger GT
• Aston Martin Vantage
• Porsche 911 GT2 RS

Apparently they thought the PP2 was a worse driver's car than a Kia Stinger GT, an Audi TT, and an SUV from Alfa Romeo.

 

[saleen367]

....crazy close numbers

Pobst explains in the video that the 350 has a mid corner push that hurt apex speeds and lap times, or it would have been even closer.

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

BTW Motor Trend is not at all a fan of the Performance Pack 2. According to this year's video it placed dead last in last year's test against this list of cars as it's competition.

• Lamborghini Huracan Performante
• Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
• Alfa Romeo Stelvio Quadrifoglio
• Mazda MX-5 Miata
• Honda Civic Type R
• BMW M5
• Audi TT RS
• McLaren 720S
  
• Ford Mustang GT
• Kia Stinger GT
• Aston Martin Vantage
• Porsche 911 GT2 RS

Apparently they thought the PP2 was a worse driver's car than a Kia Stinger GT, an Audi TT, and an SUV from Alfa Romeo.

They also ranked the ZR1 ZTK second to last. Should tell you all you need to know about those ratings.

 

[mavisky]

They also ranked the ZR1 ZTK second to last. Should tell you all you need to know about those ratings.

The C7 ZR1 has been reported by almost every driver to be an exceptionally fast car that is twitchy at the limit and not that great of a driver's car. Sure it's fast, but that's not what the test is about. It's the same reason the new 911 beat the McLaren Senna in the newest test despite the Senna breaking the all time lap record.

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