Did Ford Ruin their Manual Trans? - Engineering Explained

[shogun32]

in the MT's case the unpowered time during at least one upshift where you actually lose a fraction of a mph.

that's not the problem. it's the half second or so where acceleration stops that's killing ET. I highly doubt Ford had any stated intent to "make the Auto faster" in order to kill what little remains of M6 demand. I wouldn't buy that A10 even if the car was free and I had to pay full freight for the M6 version. The A10 is faster as a side-effect of being able to use many more gears, and thus different ratios, and shifting speed is good enough these days to be "free".

There's nothing preventing Ford from putting the A10's gear set into a housing that uses a traditional 2-plate clutch and a sequential shifter. 10 gears in a H-pattern is just not practical - it invites accidental skip shifts and picking the wrong gate even under the best of situations.

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[Fly2High]

With this much power, I wonder if going to a 7 speed, like the Vette, would help the manual times any?

Is a 6 speed the sweet spot?

I guess the only way to make a car faster is to reduce the time between shifts....

Or take them out all together - electric!

 

[Norm Peterson]

that's not the problem. it's the half second or so where acceleration stops that's killing ET.

During that half second, you're not only not accelerating - you've decelerated a little. Thrown away some of the speed you managed to accumulate while in the lower gear. My spreadsheet simulation is refined enough to pick this up, and you can sometimes see it happen in various track day videos that have speed data overlaid.

I highly doubt Ford had any stated intent to "make the Auto faster" in order to kill what little remains of M6 demand. I wouldn't buy that A10 even if the car was free and I had to pay full freight for the M6 version. The A10 is faster as a side-effect of being able to use many more gears, and thus different ratios, and shifting speed is good enough these days to be "free".

Agreed. More ratios that are more closely spaced means more power available (averaged over the duration of the acceleration event).

There's nothing preventing Ford from putting the A10's gear set into a housing that uses a traditional 2-plate clutch and a sequential shifter. 10 gears in a H-pattern is just not practical - it invites accidental skip shifts and picking the wrong gate even under the best of situations.

You'd be really busy with 10 forward gears in a sequential gearbox. Remember that with a sequential you don't get to intentionally skip gears, and less than 20% spacing in the middle gears could have you shifting a third time in the space of a 10 mph speed increase.

I think for general use, 6 is probably the practical limit. 7 is do-able for situations where you are not commonly using either 1st on the low end or 7th up top. You might put whichever of those on a gate by itself (1st in every 3-speed manual and a few 5-speed manuals was back and to the left with 2nd and 3rd sharing a straight back and forth gate . . . more of a road-race pattern where 1st need not get much use).

Perhaps the best way to get hero 0-60 times with a MT is to be able to hit 60 in 1st. Which puts a huge burden on the driver, and likely the clutch.


Norm

 

[Fly2High]

I wonder if the PP2 having smaller diameter tires 26.2” compared to the 275/40R19 having 27.7” if the changing of the final drive ratio due to this from 3.73 to 3.94 and the added traction afforded those 305-30R19 Cup2 tires if it helps any and by how much. I think it was only 0.2 sec but every little bit helps.

I think we are really looking at the wrong numbers. Look over the history of the mustang. There are very few cars in its history to date that can beat the manual and 0-60 of 4.4 (4.2 in the PP2 ) is still a hell of an accomplishment with some rather good fuel economy. In the end, does it really matter? Anyone worth their salt is not going to drag race a stock car if that is your thing. If you autocross or track it, there is so much more going on than that one figure that skill still reigns there too. Unless you drive both on a regular basis, you will not miss a thing or even notice it.

The manual is such a pleasure to drive and fun in its own right.

I say enjoy whatever Mustang you have while you still can.

 

[Fly2High]

I wonder if the Mustang was equipped with an engine like the M2 which has a rather flat torque curve would help? If the power band is narrow such that the auto can stay in the band but wide enough for the manual to fall out of it, maybe an improvement in the engine is what really is needed.

How did we ever get those old 3 and 4 speed manuals to go so fast? Big power and tons of torque? I am not talking stock but what the owners did to them after to get them so fast.

I was wondering, has anyone done a track comparison of the manual and auto? I would like to see how they differ there. I am not one who care so much about drag racing or stop light heroes. Give me an event that requires serious use of the steering wheel.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I wonder if the PP2 having smaller diameter tires 26.2” compared to the 275/40R19 having 27.7” if the changing of the final drive ratio due to this from 3.73 to 3.94 and the added traction afforded those 305-30R19 Cup2 tires if it helps any and by how much. I think it was only 0.2 sec but every little bit helps.

Of course it helps. Partly by increasing the traction limit for the traction-limited portion of the run and partly by providing deeper overall gearing for the rest. Assuming that no extra upshift would be required.

It's a diminishing returns thing, so yeah, only getting a small fraction of a second improvement sounds at least reasonable. Quick and dirty - assuming the car is traction-limited all the way to 60 mph (I don't know this for sure, but I may not be too far off), the PSC2's would only have to be about 5% grippier to buy you 4.2 from 4.4.

I think we are really looking at the wrong numbers. Look over the history of the mustang. There are very few cars in its history to date that can beat the manual and 0-60 of 4.4 (4.2 in the PP2 ) is still a hell of an accomplishment

I don't think it's a case of there being any 'wrong numbers'; more that people are only looking at those specific numbers, without seeing them in the context of their own driving.

I guess I can see how you could be made to feel that you somehow "settled for second best" by picking the 4.4 second MT car rather than its 3.8 second AT sibling. It's what happens when you let collective opinion (other people) drive your thinking in too much detail.

The manual is such a pleasure to drive and fun in its own right.

I say enjoy whatever Mustang you have while you still can.

Agreed, and agreed so long as you're not looking at the Mustang in the recent MBA-speak train of thought.


Norm

 

[Fly2High]

For me this is my first Mustang and a dream come true. There was no way I was not buying a manual. It is such a pleasure to drive. I am looking forward to having it for a long time to come. Even my daughter is looking to learn stick on it in a few years when she get her driver’s license.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I wonder if the Mustang was equipped with an engine like the M2 which has a rather flat torque curve would help? If the power band is narrow such that the auto can stay in the band but wide enough for the manual to fall out of it, maybe an improvement in the engine is what really is needed.

What the MT is in greater need of is a wider/less peaky power curve . . . IOW, torque that does not drop off as fast once past the torque peak. Acceleration is torque times gearing, not torque alone. Torque alone determines what the maximum acceleration possible in any given gear is, which is not the same thing as maximum acceleration at any given road speed.

I was wondering, has anyone done a track comparison of the manual and auto? I would like to see how they differ there. I am not one who care so much about drag racing or stop light heroes. Give me an event that requires serious use of the steering wheel.

Not too hard to figure that the automatic could well be slightly quicker from corner exit to the next corner's braking point. More difficult to say what's going to happen from braking point to corner exit. Transmission fluid temperature is likely to affect AT performance more over the duration of a race or a longer HPDE session, so any AT advantage in the early laps might not remain constant.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

For me this is my first Mustang and a dream come true. There was no way I was not buying a manual. It is such a pleasure to drive. I am looking forward to having it for a long time to come. Even my daughter is looking to learn stick on it in a few years when she get her driver’s license.

Hear here


Norm

 

[StangTime]

For me this is my first Mustang and a dream come true. There was no way I was not buying a manual. It is such a pleasure to drive. I am looking forward to having it for a long time to come. Even my daughter is looking to learn stick on it in a few years when she get her driver’s license.

I taught my girlfriends daughter to drive manual. She bought a manual Honda Civic without even knowing how to drive it. Crazy girl. She was either a fast learner or I was an awesome teacher. 5 lessons during the winter and she had it down. She is the only one other than me in the family capable of driving standard. It's a dying skill unfortunately.

 

[torqued]

She bought a manual Honda Civic without even knowing how to drive it.

Heh, I bought my 2001 GT brand new without knowing how to drive it. My dad had to test drive it (I test drove the AT version). I was just determined that it was something I wanted to do.

 

[Schwerin]

Heh, I bought my 2001 GT brand new without knowing how to drive it. My dad had to test drive it (I test drove the AT version). I was just determined that it was something I wanted to do.

That's how I bought my 2000 ZX2 S/R. I did all the paperwork, then called up my pops to drive me home. That night I learned to drive stick.

 

[w3rkn]

What the MT is in greater need of is a wider/less peaky power curve . . . IOW, torque that does not drop off as fast once past the torque peak. Acceleration is torque times gearing, not torque alone. Torque alone determines what the maximum acceleration possible in any given gear is, which is not the same thing as maximum acceleration at any given road speed.



Not too hard to figure that the automatic could well be slightly quicker from corner exit to the next corner's braking point. More difficult to say what's going to happen from braking point to corner exit. Transmission fluid temperature is likely to affect AT performance more over the duration of a race or a longer HPDE session, so any AT advantage in the early laps might not remain constant.


Norm

This^

 

[Fly2High]

I learned to drive stick by watching. My dad and aunt had a RX-7 and Porsche 928 and I use to watch intently how they drive stick. When we purchased a ‘86 Dodge Daytona Turbo Z, we had to have the original owner drop it off at our house. No one could drive it home. We hired East Meadow Driving school to come by and give me lessons on manual driving. They came by and it took all of 1/4 mile. I hit. A stop sign and handled a hill and they told me they would not take my money for the lesson. I already knew how. They told me to drive to a diner and get some coffee. We ended the lesson after that. With mom at work, I decided to take my car around the block with no plates, registration nor insurance! Boy did that car have a heavy clutch. That was how I got started.

 

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

I learned how on a 72 honda 350 motorcycle when I was 8 years old. We had a huge backyard at the time and my dad setup a makeshift dirt track for me to ride it on during the summer while my parents were at work. Yeah, it was the seventies so it was common, try that now and they take your kids away and you go to jail for child endangerment. Transferring that skill to a car with a manual was a cake walk.

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