Throttle House puts the 2020 GT500, Camaro ZL1 and Challenger Hellcat Redeye on the track

[shogun32]

My little pup enjoyed it.

and will poochie bite your hand if you buy the Camaro and lick it if you buy the Mustang?

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[BmacIL]

Why does visibility creep into every thread about the Camaro, no matter what the original topic was? I've had all kinds of cars and literally had no problem adjusting when I got my ZL1.

When people claim that it's God's chariot, it's the first and easiest thing to point out as to why it's not as desirable by the majority of buyers in the segment. The outward visibility is awful. That you adjusted to it doesn't take away from the fact that it sucks.

 

[BmacIL]

The Alpha chassis is excellent. I love and would happily drive an ATS-V (truly one of the best cars I've ever driven), but again GM bungled that up with a 2000s gauge cluster, ugly piano black plastic all over and CUE.

 

[Steeda23]

Good stuff. Cars today tend to be far more capable than drivers. Many (although still very difficult to be consistent) can get 9.9/10th in drag racing conditions but road courses require that level of talent for minutes or hours where a single mistake screws up the entire lap. That compounds when you consider the cost of road racing (track fees, tires, brakes, disposables, travel, etc). I think road racing in pretty much the ultimate test of performance on road cars since it requires everything to be great to turn a good lap but is very cost prohibitive for most and risk of damaging not only your car but others weighs heavily on the mind. That being the case, I suspect that a fraction of one percent use their cars for that purpose on a regular basis. Most of us buy cars that have to do the mundane stuff as errands don't run themselves but the option of doing that with something incredibly cool, satisfying, special and fun that gets the adrenalin running really gets many out of the rut of the daily routine. I have never been formally trained in road racing and although I want to think I am the best of the best that ever lived, that is a fantasy best left to my ego. In reality, I doubt I could run away from either car while driving the other. That being the case, I tend to choose cars that work better on the street while still being able to play on a track when called upon. The ZL1 1LE is an incredible car and I cant find fault in anybody wanting one or purchasing one. If they are one of the few that actually get to experience those cars on road courses regularly, they will be rewarded greatly but it comes at a cost of ride and daily livability. While I don’t have a compelling bias towards any one brand (I have owned Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, Jaguar, Subaru, Mazda, Infiniti, Audi and 7 Mustangs - ok maybe a slight bias to Mustangs), I would not buy a new Mustang if it were not the right car for me at this point in my life. Conversely, I am interested in possibly buying a GT500 since it may be a last hurrah of internal combustion goodness. I am also interested in the C8 Corvette and more precisely the flat plane crank Z06 as that is a high end Ferrari on the cheap that is reasonable to maintain. Point being, you cant lose with any of these cars. Most forums I read end up fixating on a few tenths of a second Or obsessing over things that will never be noticed in the real world when everybody knows any deficiency is easily rectified by the aftermarket for little money. Life is stressful enough without staunchly defending a particular brand because that has always been what you grew up with especially since there are so many great cars out there to choose from (don't limit yourself without keeping an open mind to options). Heck, the new BMW M5 is a monster for those interested in drag racing as they run 0-60 in 2.8 and quarters in 10.9@130mph on unprepared street surfaces with factory radial tires. Then there is always Tesla (I am not going there as opinions are strong with that one). I would not advise street racing any 600hp+ all wheel drive car with a rear drive car unless you happen to have a McLaren 720S handy. In any case, the new GT500 is an amazing machine and something Ford and owners should be proud of as it pushes the boundaries of what is possible for less than $100k.

 

[9secondko]

See previous throttle house videos.
The results they “achieved” here are in line with all their pony car videos.

add in Randy and well...

and the 500 just so happened to have worn out tires? Really? And the zle didn’t.
That’s a big ol’ can of NOT surprise.

 

[FogcitySF]

Seems like all the cars were running slow that day due to conditions (as alluded to in the video). On the same track, different day, but same driver (Randy) the GT350R did 1:28:29 and the regular ZL1 did 1:26:16, compared to the GT500 and ZLE at 1:28:15 and 1:27.20 respectively.

 

[Trackaholic]

Very fun video, results as expected, worn tires or no.

GT500 and ZL1 1LE are so close in performance, that there will always be a minute variable (or a significant variable) that someone can use to dispute the results.

In the end it is just bragging rights for fanboys (and girls).

Both cars are amazing, and so close that the track times should not be the deciding factor. It is all the other subjective aspects that a potential owner should focus on, as that is what will be noticed. What is the steering feel like, the braking feel, the balance, the stability at the limit, the ease of correcting mistakes, the features, the seating position, the trunk space, the fuel capacity, blah, blah, blah.

Unfortunately, GM missed the mark for most people with the Gen 6 Camaro. As much as everyone likes to hang onto these lap times as the single determinant on which is the better car, that is not what people actually buy. IMO the visibility is part of the issue, but the other is the styling and the space. The Mustang and Challenger are much more usable cars, and it shows in the sales. Hopefully GM will keep the Camaro going (because they really did a great job with the performance), but for some combination of reasons it just isn't as popular as it should be.

What is really clear is that all three of these cars are awesome in their own ways.

Someone said that the GT500 isn't the best at any one area, and therefore fails in all of the them, and I actually feel differently. I agree that it isn't the best in any one area, but I think it succeeds in all of them. It is similar in track performance to the ZL1 1LE, it is similar in straight line performance and overall road worthiness to the Red Eye. I think the thing that will keep it popular is that it excels in pretty much all areas, with really no downsides other than price (and in that price bracket, most people won't care that it is more expensive than the ZLE, because it is also competing in some ways with cars like the 911, which is another $50,000 more expensive). So from that perspective it may actually seem like a great deal. The biggest issue with the GT500 will be negotiating with dealers to eliminate or minimize ADM.

That and the lack of a stick shift...

-T

 

[wolf32v]

LOL.. now the ZL1 1LE beat it in a drag race also... HILARIOUS!!!

not so fast watch this video the Camaro everytime gets its a$$ handed to it in the 1/4 mile. Worn out tires on any car is is going to greatly effect its performance this GT500 had a bad set of tires in the throttle house review period. As they say if your spinning you are not winning.

 

[millhouse]

It's difficult to do proper, scientific tests with proper, scientific test methods and procedures without a budget. But not running all these cars on new tires, let alone, bringing a GT500 with 'well cooked tires' destroys the credibility of Throttle House and is as useless as running one car in the cold morning and another during the heat of the day that can easily be seconds slower; let alone some magazines who use multiple drivers on multiple days

-GT500 arrived with "Well-cooked Tires"
-GT500 CFTP does not have front splitter wickers installed
-GT500 CFTP does not have wing set to max downforce.

Magazines and journalists often request cars and then secretly take them to the track to conduct head to head tests without disclosing it. It's possible the GT500 CFTP went from one event or publication, who ruined the tires, directly to Throttle House without notice that the car is going to the track (possibly requested to use it for a photo/street drive review).

It's irresponsible or lazy to conduct track tests in cars that do not have new tires and I hope people as a whole start to realize this and demand magazine publications and youtube bloggers and channels to be held to a higher standard.

Can I get an Amen!?!

Exactly what I have been saying.

It would be nice to see just how bad the tires were cooked on the GT500. And while a visual is mere cursory at best it sure looks like the 1LE is running a bit more negative camber than the GT500...

It does appear that way. Funny, some here (and on the camaro forums) are claiming the GT500 has a full track alignment and the ZLE rolled up on it's street alignment. Of course, they are saying this with no proof.

With what we know about the wing, wicker splitters and tires....and the photo you are showing, it appears quite the contrary.

Why does visibility creep into every thread about the Camaro, no matter what the original topic was? I've had all kinds of cars and literally had no problem adjusting when I got my ZL1.

Honestly, it's a reason many didn't buy the camaro. It's a sore spot for sure. My guess is, with better visibility and a trunk that allows for a full sized set of golf clubs...many mustang folks wouldn't actually be mustang folks.

 

[Hack]

It is, stock. It has far less subframe bushing and suspension member bushing deflection, and is a better multi-link design for optimal handling and geometric control. The Ford integral link is very compact and efficient, and isn't a bad suspension, from a control points perspective. Ford handicaps it HARD with their NVH-isolation measures, and could improve it significantly without adding much, if any cost, and with minimal to no NVH changes. There are a few other things like the rear shock mounting design. Also, having a pretty poor rear motion ratio (worse than the Alpha) means that you need to run larger and heavier springs. The S550 is a good platform, and can be made much better still.

Seems like you know what you are talking about. Do you have links to the actual data published by trustworthy sources?

 

[Hack]

when or wherever have you seen a write up or a review of any of the mustang where there praised the chassis? That’s is all you read when they talk about the Camaro, is how good the Alph chassis is. This is from every magazine review of the car. They critique other aspects of the car on the negatives, but they all love how planted the car feel right from the base $25,000 Camaro right up to the zl1 1le. When you have that kind of consistency through out the lineup with many types of suspensions, just shows how good the Alpha is.

It's just BS with no evidence to back it up. People say all kinds of things, but the Mustang and Camaro perform so similarly that it is hard for me to imagine that the chassis is that different between the two.

If a reviewer says that a car has this width of tire, I believe it. If a reviewer says something about feel, I would have to trust them. It's like a faith-based comment.

I drove my GT350 to a Chevy dealer and test drove a Camaro. I didn't think the Camaro seemed better. I felt like the chassis of the GT350 was way better.

See what I mean about faith? If someone presents hard data, measurements, weights, etc. or something like that (real evidence), then I might believe that one chassis is better or worse. Until then, I think they are roughly equivalent.

I think if you take a Mustang and a Camaro with similar power plants, similar wheel rates, similar roll stiffness and similar tires, they are going to perform very similarly. I don't believe that one "chassis" is so much better that one of the cars will perform a lot better in that circumstance.

 

[BmacIL]

Seems like you know what you are talking about. Do you have links to the actual data published by trustworthy sources?

I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a good deal of experience in vehicle dynamics and suspension design (racing), powertrain design and integration, vehicle test and development (OEMs). This is my assessment with the knowledge and tools I've used before. Other sources who worked on both platforms (@KellTrac for instance) agree.

Overall the biggest difference is out back, where the integral link package is quite good for a variety of platforms (shared on Fusion, Continental and at least another vehicle or two) and allows for straightforward packaging. It's just not as optimal. The biggest issues are fixable getting rid of the the excessive compliance and rubber-induced spring rate.

 

[thill444]

Why does visibility creep into every thread about the Camaro, no matter what the original topic was? I've had all kinds of cars and literally had no problem adjusting when I got my ZL1.

Because it's a big issue for many people and it's one of the first thing every single reviewer talks about when they sit in the Camaro.

Let me ask you an honest question. Why do you think 6th gen Camaro sales have struggled? The car has a great chassis, and GM offers a ton of different engines, options, price points, etc. The car has lots of technology. So what is it about the car that turns buyers away?

 

[Hack]

I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a good deal of experience in vehicle dynamics and suspension design (racing), powertrain design and integration, vehicle test and development (OEMs). This is my assessment with the knowledge and tools I've used before. Other sources who worked on both platforms (@KellTrac for instance) agree.

Overall the biggest difference is out back, where the integral link package is quite good for a variety of platforms (shared on Fusion, Continental and at least another vehicle or two) and allows for straightforward packaging.

I understand what you are saying. Basically my way of saying it is you have the knowledge to look at the cars and with no measurements or data, just looking at them you believe there are some things about one that is better than the other. I believe that you can do that, and I believe you are correct.

However, I still believe that the chassis of the two cars are nearly identical from a performance standpoint. Maybe in theory one looks a little better, but the actual advantage to handling is quite minor.

 

[BmacIL]

I understand what you are saying. Basically my way of saying it is you have the knowledge to look at the cars and with no measurements or data, just looking at them you believe there are some things about one that is better than the other. I believe that you can do that, and I believe you are correct.

However, I still believe that the chassis of the two cars are nearly identical from a performance standpoint. Maybe in theory one looks a little better, but the actual advantage to handling is quite minor.

I'd agree with your assessment. I also have done more than just look at it (measurements, plotting curves), but a lot of it is intuitive initially. Looking at upper to lower swing arm length and points, anti-squat angle, toe control points for dynamic toe (bump toe), one that knows what they're looking for can make a good inference on camber gain, roll centers, pitch center, bump toe, motion ratio and the migration of all of that through the travel. The Camaro's is a bit better on all fronts, and while I don't have the data to support this, I bet is lighter.

It is relatively small once you fix the rubber problem.

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