GTPP2 vs GT350 Caranddriver

[shogun32]

And it is surprising such obvious package does not exist... or the fact that there's no DIY on this kind of swap

get that aftermarket Magneride controller (DSC?) and a map. The same company has maps for the GT350 and Coyote cars. Ask them if there's a lick of difference in the maps and why.

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[mavisky]

Frustrating that they did such a good job of talking about all of the various differences, but failed to clue into the fact that the tires aren't actually the same compound.

PP2 Cup 2's = GT350R Cup 2's
GT350 Cup 2's are closer to PS4S grip levels

Would have loved to see them on the same compound for a more accurate performance comparison, but I also understand that they were comparing them as Ford manufactures and sells them.

 

[02gtnh]

Frustrating that they did such a good job of talking about all of the various differences, but failed to clue into the fact that the tires aren't actually the same compound.

PP2 Cup 2's = GT350R Cup 2's
GT350 Cup 2's are closer to PS4S grip levels

Would have loved to see them on the same compound for a more accurate performance comparison, but I also understand that they were comparing them as Ford manufactures and sells them.

Good info on the gt350 cup2 tires

https://fordauthority.com/2019/05/explaining-the-new-2019-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350-tire-package/

 

[DekiDoo]

Frustrating that they did such a good job of talking about all of the various differences, but failed to clue into the fact that the tires aren't actually the same compound.

PP2 Cup 2's = GT350R Cup 2's
GT350 Cup 2's are closer to PS4S grip levels

Would have loved to see them on the same compound for a more accurate performance comparison, but I also understand that they were comparing them as Ford manufactures and sells them.

Where did you get that the Cup 2s on the 350 are closer to PS4s? If that was the case, the PP2 would have been faster. I have the PS4s on my car and the compound, as well as the design of the tire, is world's apart from the 19 GT350 tires.

 

[Schwerin]

Noone says just suspension mods would make up for the difference GT vs 350.

It's just..... if "Shelby suspension pack" was available on the market I'd probably bought it. And it is surprising such obvious package does not exist... or the fact that there's no DIY on this kind of swap

Engine power and cooling is a totally different story.

The Ford Performance springs and bars are an upgrade for the PP1, PP2 and GT350.

 

[mavisky]

Where did you get that the Cup 2s on the 350 are closer to PS4s? If that was the case, the PP2 would have been faster. I have the PS4s on my car and the compound, as well as the design of the tire, is world's apart from the 19 GT350 tires.

Re-read the test. The PP2 has higher grip numbers and shorter braking distances due to the tires. The only reason the 350 wins in the comparison is due to the 66 additional hp and tighter gear ratios.

There is an absolute difference between the Pilot Sport Cup 2's on the GT350R and the PP2 and the Pilot Sport Cup 2's designed for the GT350 as Michelin ceased production of the Pilot Super Sports for the GT350 starting in 2019.

The post directly above you confirms that the Ford Performance branded Cup 2's that are installed on the GT350 are similar in design but with longer lasting compound than standard Cup 2's. The GT350R and the PP2 don't have the FP branded cup 2's on them. The GT350 runs a 295/35-19 on the front and a 305/35-19 on the rear in the new PSC2 FP tires, the GT350R runs 305/30-19 front and 315/30-19 rear standard PSC2 tires. The GT PP2 essentially runs the 305/30-19 PSC2's from the front of the GT350R at all 4 corners.

Now I admit that the new GT350 specific PSC2 FP's are faster than the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups that had been in place up until 2018, but the changes in compound to extend the life of the tires also reduced their outright grip in comparison to the GT350R and GT PP2. This is readily apparent in the stopping tests where both cars wear the same and yet the GT350 with larger brakes than the PP2 takes longer to stop.

 

[GT30fan]

I am not a huge fan of the newest base mustang new design front end either in some colors, but in other colors they look awesome. Still a nice looking car. But I did prefer it pre-facelift in some colors

But there is SO much aftermarket stuff for Mustang GT, that really, just getting another front cover could change that in a jiffy. if that was all that was holding me back, I would store the OEM face and just buy a pre-painted swap

 

[Schwerin]

Re-read the test. The PP2 has higher grip numbers and shorter braking distances due to the tires. The only reason the 350 wins in the comparison is due to the 66 additional hp and tighter gear ratios.

There is an absolute difference between the Pilot Sport Cup 2's on the GT350R and the PP2 and the Pilot Sport Cup 2's designed for the GT350 as Michelin ceased production of the Pilot Super Sports for the GT350 starting in 2019.

The post directly above you confirms that the Ford Performance branded Cup 2's that are installed on the GT350 are similar in design but with longer lasting compound than standard Cup 2's. The GT350R and the PP2 don't have the FP branded cup 2's on them. The GT350 runs a 295/35-19 on the front and a 305/35-19 on the rear in the new PSC2 FP tires, the GT350R runs 305/30-19 front and 315/30-19 rear standard PSC2 tires. The GT PP2 essentially runs the 305/30-19 PSC2's from the front of the GT350R at all 4 corners.

Now I admit that the new GT350 specific PSC2 FP's are faster than the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups that had been in place up until 2018, but the changes in compound to extend the life of the tires also reduced their outright grip in comparison to the GT350R and GT PP2. This is readily apparent in the stopping tests where both cars wear the same and yet the GT350 with larger brakes than the PP2 takes longer to stop.

I think it may be a bit less than that. If I remember most 18+'s put down about 420-425whp and and the GT350 about 465-470whp and they seem to trend in about 5ft-lbs of each other. While I'd like to see the same tire run on both (and I'd like to see how much the FP suspension kit helps the PPL2 over stock) I have a feeling the GT350's aero and suspension are also both dialed in better than the PPL2's. Gearing too. I would not be amazed if the GT's gearing is more caring about MPG ratings than the track like the GT350's

If the rumor is true and the new mach1 is really just going to be a Bullitt intake and tuning setup (which really just seems to shift peaks up 250-300rpm), PPL2 and GT350 tranny then we'll have a much closer gap.

 

[mavisky]

I think it may be a bit less than that. If I remember most 18+'s put down about 420-425whp and and the GT350 about 465-470whp and they seem to trend in about 5ft-lbs of each other. While I'd like to see the same tire run on both (and I'd like to see how much the FP suspension kit helps the PPL2 over stock) I have a feeling the GT350's aero and suspension are also both dialed in better than the PPL2's.

If the rumor is true and the new mach1 is really just going to be a Bullitt intake and tuning setup (which really just seems to shift peaks up 250-300rpm), PPL2 and GT350 tranny then we'll have a much closer gap.

I was going off of the 460hp vs 526hp the manufacturer claims on the number, but regardless the GT350 makes more power and that was really my only point there. Based on the feedback I'd have to agree with you on the suspension as they talked about how twitchy the PP2 was under braking in contrast to the GT350 even thought the stickier tires helped the PP2 brake in a shorter distance. This is probably a case of the revised suspension geometry of the GT350 in comparison to just throwing massive sticky tires onto the design of the PP2.

If Ford frankensteins another Mach 1 together from existing parts in other model ranges then that could be something that really closes the gap as you outlined. It will be curious which direction they go with that model.

The other thing that the article touches on that noone in the forum is talking about yet though is multi-lap performance. If there's anything that really impressed me about the GT350 it was the exceptional design and air management as it relates to all of the coolers on the vehicle designed to support continuous lapping. I have no doubt that a PP2 car can put up a hero lap near what the GT350 is capable of, but the GT350 will be able to repeatedly run that number. This means nothing on the streets of course, but when you're paying for track time the last thing you want to do is spend 30% of your session in the pits or on track giving point by's as you let the systems cool down.

 

[Hack]

The other thing that the article touches on that noone in the forum is talking about yet though is multi-lap performance. If there's anything that really impressed me about the GT350 it was the exceptional design and air management as it relates to all of the coolers on the vehicle designed to support continuous lapping. I have no doubt that a PP2 car can put up a hero lap near what the GT350 is capable of, but the GT350 will be able to repeatedly run that number. This means nothing on the streets of course, but when you're paying for track time the last thing you want to do is spend 30% of your session in the pits or on track giving point by's as you let the systems cool down.

Some of us are talking about it. That's why I don't really understand the PP2. It seems like a magazine number car to me, because on the street you won't be using the capability, and on the track it will get hot.

 

[saleen367]

Any of you have time to explain away how the PP2 set a lap 2 seconds slower (2:53.8) than a GT350R (2:51.8) at VIR (4.1 mi) for C&D Lightning Lap 2018, yet this one could not stay within 2 seconds of a GT350 @ Gratten (2 mi) with so called "GT350 Cup 2's that are closer to PS4S grip levels"?
BTW, it matters not that the diff overheated, as it still ran that lap time. Diff issue is a $1500 FTB cooler correction.

I'll be back tomorrow to catch the scientific explanation... I'm sure @mavisky has the answer.

 

[cib24]

Aside from the cooling, gearbox and peakier horsepower differences, all of which seem obvious. What exactly is different in the GT350s suspension? Has any motoring outlet done a detailed comparison of the structural differences of the various suspension components? Diameters of control arms and sway bars and anything else relevant, bushing differences, extra bracing, etc.?

 

[ALUSA]

Any of you have time to explain away how the PP2 set a lap 2 seconds slower (2:53.8) than a GT350R (2:51.8) at VIR (4.1 mi) for C&D Lightning Lap 2018, yet this one could not stay within 2 seconds of a GT350 @ Gratten (2 mi) with so called "GT350 Cup 2's that are closer to PS4S grip levels"?
BTW, it matters not that the diff overheated, as it still ran that lap time. Diff issue is a $1500 FTB cooler correction.

I'll be back tomorrow to catch the scientific explanation... I'm sure @mavisky has the answer.

What year was the GT350R in the comparison lap time? Ford has been updating the GT350’s since 2016. The current GT350 supposedly received upgrades and better than ever while the GTPP2 is just a GT. Ford is trying hard for people to pay premium and buy the GT350 over the GTPP2. They had to open up the gap somehow to justify the performance and value difference.

 

[mavisky]

Any of you have time to explain away how the PP2 set a lap 2 seconds slower (2:53.8) than a GT350R (2:51.8) at VIR (4.1 mi) for C&D Lightning Lap 2018, yet this one could not stay within 2 seconds of a GT350 @ Gratten (2 mi) with so called "GT350 Cup 2's that are closer to PS4S grip levels"?
BTW, it matters not that the diff overheated, as it still ran that lap time. Diff issue is a $1500 FTB cooler correction.

I'll be back tomorrow to catch the scientific explanation... I'm sure @mavisky has the answer.

Lightning lap has never compared those two cars in the same year so you're talking different conditions and different drivers. Each car is driven by multiple writers and the best times are taken from each. If you've ever read an article or listened to a podcast from the writers involved this means that the fastest driver may not be in the car when the weather, track temp, and vehicle condition are optimal for the best possible lap time.

The GT350R was run back in 2016 while the Performance Pack 2 wasn't run until 2018.

Here's an excerpt from the article about the Performance Pack 2 and just how sticky those tires really are.

The Mustang hammers through Turn 1 at 1.13 g’s, cornering harder than the McLaren 720S, Porsche 911 GT3, and Ford’s own supercar.

According to the results on Lightning lap 2016, the GT350R went through turn 1 at less than 1.12G, failing to make their list of highest corner grip through that corner at that point in time. While I can't explain why this is, the fact of the matter is that it seemed the GT350R had less grip on this day in 2016 than the PP2 had in 2018 when it ran. I would wager that given that they both run the exact same tires on the front of the car, that particular number on the same day should be closer and certainly not lower for the GT350R. I'm guessing it wasn't the best day and time for setting an all out hero lap in the GT350R and that had it run on the same day in 2018 as the PP2 the gap would be larger than 2 seconds.
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...esults-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature/

@saleen367 I don't know why you singled me out here, but let it be known that I'm not a detractor of the PP2, I think it's a great car for back road adventures and autocross and can deliver similar grip levels to the GT350R for 20k less. With that money saved you could most certainly makeup the horsepower deficit and probably even match it NA if you're willing. You could also solve the cooling issues it has with all of that leftover cash as well. I merely came in here to clear up 1 thing that Ford and Michelin confused the world on, that there are two different type of Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's mounted to Mustangs.

The grippiest version is the standard Cup2 mounted to the GT350R and the PP2, the GT350 get's the less sticky FP branded Cup2's so that owners who buy the GT350 still have good traction in less then ideal situations as that car is meant to be driven in a wider range of conditions than the all out top of the range GT and GT350 are.

 

[DekiDoo]

Lightning lap has never compared those two cars in the same year so you're talking different conditions and different drivers. Each car is driven by multiple writers and the best times are taken from each. If you've ever read an article or listened to a podcast from the writers involved this means that the fastest driver may not be in the car when the weather, track temp, and vehicle condition are optimal for the best possible lap time.

The GT350R was run back in 2016 while the Performance Pack 2 wasn't run until 2018.

Here's an excerpt from the article about the Performance Pack 2 and just how sticky those tires really are.


According to the results on Lightning lap 2016, the GT350R went through turn 1 at less than 1.12G, failing to make their list of highest corner grip through that corner at that point in time. While I can't explain why this is, the fact of the matter is that it seemed the GT350R had less grip on this day in 2016 than the PP2 had in 2018 when it ran. I would wager that given that they both run the exact same tires on the front of the car, that particular number on the same day should be closer and certainly not lower for the GT350R. I'm guessing it wasn't the best day and time for setting an all out hero lap in the GT350R and that had it run on the same day in 2018 as the PP2 the gap would be larger than 2 seconds.
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...esults-historical-lap-times-and-more-feature/

@saleen367 I don't know why you singled me out here, but let it be known that I'm not a detractor of the PP2, I think it's a great car for back road adventures and autocross and can deliver similar grip levels to the GT350R for 20k less. With that money saved you could most certainly makeup the horsepower deficit and probably even match it NA if you're willing. You could also solve the cooling issues it has with all of that leftover cash as well. I merely came in here to clear up 1 thing that Ford and Michelin confused the world on, that there are two different type of Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2's mounted to Mustangs.

The grippiest version is the standard Cup2 mounted to the GT350R and the PP2, the GT350 get's the less sticky FP branded Cup2's so that owners who buy the GT350 still have good traction in less then ideal situations as that car is meant to be driven in a wider range of conditions than the all out top of the range GT and GT350 are.

I think he singled you out because you gave me a pretty good explanation on the tire differences. I don't think he was being a dick, at least from my point of view.

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