work ethic

[Hack]

Something is definately wrong with the workforce these days when you drive down the road and see large lighted billboards put up by companies like Alcoa and Toyota seeking production and tech positions...$25 to $35 an hour jobs here that nobody wants..I spent many a time applying to companies like this many years ago when I was much younger but never got as lucky as others..Now that I'm in my mid 50s and body worn out they can't find people to do these jobs?..just unreal..

The economy is booming - that's why it's hard to find workers. Most of the people who want jobs have jobs. That is why salaries increase for lower/middle positions. When unemployment is really low companies have to compete to find workers. You could take one of the positions if you wanted it. My dad went to work for the railroad when he was in his 50s. Most of the other guys starting out were in their 20s. He did pretty well and now he has a pension from the railroad in addition to his retirement savings.

This is not directed at hiccup or necessarily anyone else in the thread. Just something I want to say about work ethic. Not that anyone in this thread is asking for my advice, but my advice is to try to take care of yourself rather than worrying about others. Who cares what someone else's work ethic is? Worrying or complaining about someone else is just wasted effort.

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[Strokerswild]

The work ethic of others definitely kind of sucks, but I'm not going to change it and I'll just keep on keepin' on. My work ethic will have me debt free at (hopefully) under 55 with multiple properties and assets, and I have nobody to thank but myself.

However, it's not all bad out there. I work with a couple of engineers right out of college, and they don't fit the millenial stereotype at all. I think they'll be OK. The masses? Well...

 

[Hack]

The work ethic of others definitely kind of sucks, but I'm not going to change it and I'll just keep on keepin' on. My work ethic will have me debt free at (hopefully) under 55 with multiple properties and assets, and I have nobody to thank but myself.

However, it's not all bad out there. I work with a couple of engineers right out of college, and they don't fit the millenial stereotype at all. I think they'll be OK. The masses? Well...

I've seen this too. Some millennials are absolutely terrible but others have really strong work ethics. Not that different from any other generation. The percentages of those with stronger work ethic might be lower, but there are definitely some really good workers who are millennials.

 

[ninjacoupe]

The job market is very tight. There is also a shortage of skilled labor as many of these kids were pushed in useless college degrees. I suspect the ones who quit aren’t quitting due to a lack of work ethic but more due to being unable to deal with the stress of the “real world”. A lot of this “trophy” generation was never really challenged and can’t cope with the stress of it. Can’t cope with failure and don’t know understand the effort it takes to succeed and overcome obstacles.... sadly they don’t know the rewards that come along with it either.

 

[Jimmy Dean]

I have not seen anyone touch upon another major issue.

Underpayment for work performed. The same jobs 20 years ago payed nearly the same amount, there has been very little increase in payin regards to inflation or COLA increases. This results in less relative pay for the same job. Despite the fact that that same job gets more done per person now than it did 20 years ago due to computing efficiencies.

So, While I make my company more than 10x as much volume now as 20 years ago, plus another 70% increase after inflation markups, my pay has only increased by less than 50%. Our starting salary has only increased by 10% in that same time frame.

So, why the hell should I expect any new person to put in the same effort that we did decades ago? So that the fat cats at the top can go buy more aston martins and Maseratis and vacation homes and trips around the globe? while we try to figure out how to afford a reliable vehicle and pay for our children's summer camp or day care?

Yes, there are issues with distractions, a change in desires for work/life balance, but some of that is due to the above. I'm tired of seeing folks my age and a bit older bashing the younger generation when we've dealt them a shit hand in a lot of respects.

My dad's starting salary as an engineer in 1978 works out to more than double my starting salary as an engineer in 2004. his pay at 10 years was nearly triple mine at 10, and I'm the lead engineer at my company.

Then you have to deal with costs for certain things having inflated beyond inflation rates and well beyond wage increases. Insurance and vehicles mostly. a 1971 Mach 1 costs the equivalent of 23,000 in 2019. The equivalent car in 2019, a PP1 GT Premium optioned out is 50k. Yes, I am well aware that there is significantly more real costs and tech involved in the new ones. But you cannot get an entry level reliable new car for under 10k, whereas the entry level new cars inthe 60s and 70s costs significantly less than that in todays money.

Average salary 1965: 6900$.
Average car price 1965: 2650$

Average salary today: 47060$
Average car price today: 37150$

 

[cosmic charlie]

The job market is very tight. There is also a shortage of skilled labor as many of these kids were pushed in useless college degrees. I suspect the ones who quit aren’t quitting due to a lack of work ethic but more due to being unable to deal with the stress of the “real world”. A lot of this “trophy” generation was never really challenged and can’t cope with the stress of it. Can’t cope with failure and don’t know understand the effort it takes to succeed and overcome obstacles.... sadly they don’t know the rewards that come along with it either.

You mean the ones that never lost a soccer match? (Never won one either). Always a tie. That's supposed to get kids ready to handle the real world?

 

[Jimmy Dean]

You mean the ones that never lost a soccer match? (Never won one either). Always a tie. That's supposed to get kids ready to handle the real world?

Did the kids decide to do an 'everyone gets a trophy' soccer league?

Or their parents? Those same parents who then bitch and use that as an example of the younger generations entitlements.

 

[Copperhead73]

I don't begrudge folks who don't want to bust their ass. What I begrudge are those that look at someone who does bust their ass with jealousy, then decries "the system" for its unfairness.

On another note, no workforce will ever see the raises they deserve as long as they import people who will do the same job for less.

 

[Jimmy Dean]

I don't begrudge folks who don't want to bust their ass. What I begrudge are those that look at someone who does bust their ass with jealousy, then decries "the system" for its unfairness.

On another note, no workforce will ever see the raises they deserve as long as they import people who will do the same job for less.

Eh, it's not even that. My company cannot hire anyone who is here on a VISA or we would lose too much money. Certain companies can't do business with us, and others won't. I am very familiar with my companies books, and it is quite literally that the managers within a few years of retirement refuse as many raises as possible to reduce expenditure to bring up stock prices so that their retirement cash out is larger, even a single percent is a couple hundred thousand for them with 25-30 years in the company. Once they retire, then the next batch of VPs and the new Pres are all in the same boat, within 5-10 years of retirement so they try to suppress raises as much as possible to boost the stock value for their own benefit. It's been like that for the last 20 years, and no changes thus far, and doesn't look like it will change. Each batch as they work their way up and you talk with them 'Oh, we'll get that fixed, I don't need that extra million or two, we'll get you the raises you've deserved' until they are actually in that spot and then it's 'It's just not in the budget this year...' Mother fucker. Your bonus was 300k, stock prices went up literally 30%. THE FUCK it's not in the budget you greedy shit.

(albeit, a single percent of the stock price for me would be about 50k, so not insignificant, I sorta understand, but you need to draw a line, morally, where you have enough, it is time to start handing back some of what you were given to those coming up). My own dad is a good example. He is in hismid 60s, a few million in the bank, 3 houses (nice houses, 2 of them 1/2mil-700k each out on the lake and one in town), boats, trucks, cars, but still working because he wants more. Always more. Never enough. He 'retired' 7 years ago, and has just been running full time contracting jobs since at a few hundred k a year, but that keeps a younger engineer from moving up into that position even as an employee making much less. Because he needs to replace the old granite with new granite. He needs the newest F-250, the newest 25' Bay boats and the newest radars and such.

 

[Copperhead73]

Eh, it's not even that. My company cannot hire anyone who is here on a VISA or we would lose too much money. Certain companies can't do business with us, and others won't. I am very familiar with my companies books, and it is quite literally that the managers within a few years of retirement refuse as many raises as possible to reduce expenditure to bring up stock prices so that their retirement cash out is larger, even a single percent is a couple hundred thousand for them with 25-30 years in the company. Once they retire, then the next batch of VPs and the new Pres are all in the same boat, within 5-10 years of retirement so they try to suppress raises as much as possible to boost the stock value for their own benefit. It's been like that for the last 20 years, and no changes thus far, and doesn't look like it will change. Each batch as they work their way up and you talk with them 'Oh, we'll get that fixed, I don't need that extra million or two, we'll get you the raises you've deserved' until they are actually in that spot and then it's 'It's just not in the budget this year...' Mother fucker. Your bonus was 300k, stock prices went up literally 30%. THE FUCK it's not in the budget you greedy shit.

(albeit, a single percent of the stock price for me would be about 50k, so not insignificant, I sorta understand, but you need to draw a line, morally, where you have enough, it is time to start handing back some of what you were given to those coming up). My own dad is a good example. He is in hismid 60s, a few million in the bank, 3 houses (nice houses, 2 of them 1/2mil-700k each out on the lake and one in town), boats, trucks, cars, but still working because he wants more. Always more. Never enough. He 'retired' 7 years ago, and has just been running full time contracting jobs since at a few hundred k a year, but that keeps a younger engineer from moving up into that position even as an employee making much less. Because he needs to replace the old granite with new granite. He needs the newest F-250, the newest 25' Bay boats and the newest radars and such.

So in that case, the existing workforce will do the same job for less :/ My company actually has been giving pretty good raises in the last few years because we have so many competitors that will hire our folks away. Our industry can't use many visa holders either because of security requirements. In spite of that, our stock is one of the hottest around this year. It has doubled in the last 12 months.

I get your point, though. Pay won't go up unless it has to. As long as your company's workforce puts up with it, it won't change.

 

[Hack]

I have not seen anyone touch upon another major issue.

Underpayment for work performed. The same jobs 20 years ago payed nearly the same amount, there has been very little increase in payin regards to inflation or COLA increases. This results in less relative pay for the same job. Despite the fact that that same job gets more done per person now than it did 20 years ago due to computing efficiencies.

So, While I make my company more than 10x as much volume now as 20 years ago, plus another 70% increase after inflation markups, my pay has only increased by less than 50%. Our starting salary has only increased by 10% in that same time frame.

So, why the hell should I expect any new person to put in the same effort that we did decades ago? So that the fat cats at the top can go buy more aston martins and Maseratis and vacation homes and trips around the globe? while we try to figure out how to afford a reliable vehicle and pay for our children's summer camp or day care?

Yes, there are issues with distractions, a change in desires for work/life balance, but some of that is due to the above. I'm tired of seeing folks my age and a bit older bashing the younger generation when we've dealt them a shit hand in a lot of respects.

My dad's starting salary as an engineer in 1978 works out to more than double my starting salary as an engineer in 2004. his pay at 10 years was nearly triple mine at 10, and I'm the lead engineer at my company.

Then you have to deal with costs for certain things having inflated beyond inflation rates and well beyond wage increases. Insurance and vehicles mostly. a 1971 Mach 1 costs the equivalent of 23,000 in 2019. The equivalent car in 2019, a PP1 GT Premium optioned out is 50k. Yes, I am well aware that there is significantly more real costs and tech involved in the new ones. But you cannot get an entry level reliable new car for under 10k, whereas the entry level new cars inthe 60s and 70s costs significantly less than that in todays money.

Average salary 1965: 6900$.
Average car price 1965: 2650$

Average salary today: 47060$
Average car price today: 37150$

A lot of people will move from job to job in order to get salary bumps. Especially when people are younger that strategy tends to pay off.

I agree that wages have not kept up with inflation. I believe it's a side effect of perpetually high levels of unemployment. If there tend to be an excess of workers, salaries don't grow. If there are an excess of jobs and a shortage of good workers, that's when salaries grow.

Maybe you should look for another job with better pay.

 

[Ebm]

Something is definately wrong with the workforce these days when you drive down the road and see large lighted billboards put up by companies like Alcoa and Toyota seeking production and tech positions...$25 to $35 an hour jobs here that nobody wants..I spent many a time applying to companies like this many years ago when I was much younger but never got as lucky as others..Now that I'm in my mid 50s and body worn out they can't find people to do these jobs?..just unreal..

My opinion of the situation is the young workforce want to be a white-collar worker not a blue-collar worker. Back in the day, people didn't mind getting their hands dirty. Now everyone is a diva. There's pros and cons here. A pro is usually a white-collar job is a low risk job. Something that doesn't carry the risk of injury. On the other side... a con is it has made people lazy. Sitting at a desk all day will do that to you as well as make you fat. Have you seen the obesity rate these days in America? Yes, some of it is diet, but the other half is a job sitting at a desk.The advancement in technology is a great thing, but it has also converted LOTS of jobs from blue-collar work to white-collar work or at least a hybrid of the two.

 

[Hack]

My opinion of the situation is the young workforce want to be a white-collar worker not a blue-collar worker. Back in the day, people didn't mind getting their hands dirty. Now everyone is a diva. There's pros and cons here. A pro is usually a white-collar job is a low risk job. Something that doesn't carry the risk of injury. On the other side... a con is it has made people lazy. Sitting at a desk all day will do that to you as well as make you fat. Have you seen the obesity rate these days in America? Yes, some of it is diet, but the other half is a job sitting at a desk.The advancement in technology is a great thing, but it has also converted LOTS of jobs from blue-collar work to white-collar work or at least a hybrid of the two.

IMO obesity is all diet. No matter how much you exercise - if you eat too much you will be fat. Exercise is good for your heart/lungs, but you still need to control what you eat.

 

[kluke15]

I have not seen anyone touch upon another major issue.

Underpayment for work performed. The same jobs 20 years ago payed nearly the same amount, there has been very little increase in payin regards to inflation or COLA increases. This results in less relative pay for the same job. Despite the fact that that same job gets more done per person now than it did 20 years ago due to computing efficiencies.

So, While I make my company more than 10x as much volume now as 20 years ago, plus another 70% increase after inflation markups, my pay has only increased by less than 50%. Our starting salary has only increased by 10% in that same time frame.

So, why the hell should I expect any new person to put in the same effort that we did decades ago? So that the fat cats at the top can go buy more aston martins and Maseratis and vacation homes and trips around the globe? while we try to figure out how to afford a reliable vehicle and pay for our children's summer camp or day care?

Yes, there are issues with distractions, a change in desires for work/life balance, but some of that is due to the above. I'm tired of seeing folks my age and a bit older bashing the younger generation when we've dealt them a shit hand in a lot of respects.

My dad's starting salary as an engineer in 1978 works out to more than double my starting salary as an engineer in 2004. his pay at 10 years was nearly triple mine at 10, and I'm the lead engineer at my company.

Then you have to deal with costs for certain things having inflated beyond inflation rates and well beyond wage increases. Insurance and vehicles mostly. a 1971 Mach 1 costs the equivalent of 23,000 in 2019. The equivalent car in 2019, a PP1 GT Premium optioned out is 50k. Yes, I am well aware that there is significantly more real costs and tech involved in the new ones. But you cannot get an entry level reliable new car for under 10k, whereas the entry level new cars inthe 60s and 70s costs significantly less than that in todays money.

Average salary 1965: 6900$.
Average car price 1965: 2650$

Average salary today: 47060$
Average car price today: 37150$

those are some good points. i def agree with the fat cats up top statement. i work for a not for profit hospital and all the nurses are barely getting by while we have broken vitals machines and are understaffed, underpaid but work at the best hospital in the region with the sickest patients but we are the least paid in the region but just found out our ceo has a new lambo. hardly anyone can afford to buy a house, a lot are forced to rent and even then its tight. suppressed raises etc and every quarter they add more tasks to our duties but never give us anything more to work with.

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