Total Mustang sales 2019 figure

[bootlegger]

One other thing I hate is direct injection. Why do we want to make a gas engine emit particles as though it's a diesel? To save a little fuel? So stupid. Get rid of the direct injection. It costs more, is less reliable and it's a polluter.

Direct injection is amazing. No, it isn't a polluter. You are thinking of the old DI systems. The small particulate increase is offset by lower GHG emissions. However, the greatest benefit of DI is the increased atomization of fuel for increased combustion efficiency. You are also able to inject the fuel right where it needs to be, which helps timing and allows the safe utilization of higher compression. DIG is the only thing keeping ICE alive longer. If we were stuck with only PFI, you would have seen a faster transition to hybrid and EV. Seriously, go stand behind a 2018+ Mustang GT and let someone rev it. No PM can be seen.

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[bootlegger]

All UV's are not clown cars. You should drive an Escape or CX5. Both drive and handle like a sports sedan. The 2.0 in my wife's Escape is pretty darn quick too. And as far as being temporary, you make it sound like these vehicles are new. The first Surburban was 1935. The Jeep Wagoneer was 1963. SUV/CUV's will die off when people stop buying them. It has nothing to do with Boomers.

Tis true. I have a 2020 VW Tiguan as a loaner car right now, and that thing drives like a Jetta.

 

[Hack]

Direct injection is amazing. No, it isn't a polluter. You are thinking of the old DI systems. The small particulate increase is offset by lower GHG emissions. However, the greatest benefit of DI is the increased atomization of fuel for increased combustion efficiency. You are also able to inject the fuel right where it needs to be, which helps timing and allows the safe utilization of higher compression. DIG is the only thing keeping ICE alive longer. If we were stuck with only PFI, you would have seen a faster transition to hybrid and EV. Seriously, go stand behind a 2018+ Mustang GT and let someone rev it. No PM can be seen.

I stand by everything I said.

The only reason some vehicles are transitioning to hybrid and EV is due to false narratives and bad science (well, corruption and money making schemes are other causes, but I don't want to get into all that). The sad thing is they are going to stop making small, lightweight cars that are actually fuel efficient and go to mostly pickups and SUVs that gulp down fuel.

 

[bootlegger]

I stand by everything I said.

The only reason some vehicles are transitioning to hybrid and EV is due to false narratives and bad science (well, corruption and money making schemes are other causes, but I don't want to get into all that). The sad thing is they are going to stop making small, lightweight cars that are actually fuel efficient and go to mostly pickups and SUVs that gulp down fuel.

As a development engineer, I can tell you there is no "bad science" in hybrids. EV is hit or miss right now, but that is a limitation due to battery technology. Next gen batteries will be a game changer. Hybrid vehicles are really the best of both worlds. They will be even better when moving to 48V systems. Hybrid allows a small ICE engine for range with the ability to recapture wasted energy from things like braking. They also allow the engine to run a peak efficiency, no matter how the vehicle is being operated.

All that aside, your comment on DIG technology is not backed by science. DIG is superior to PFI in every way but PM/NOx emissions and cost, but these are marginal given modern catalyst systems and more efficient manufacturing processes. The technology is far from complicated, and is the reason 3rd gen coyotes are cleaner than previous gens while outputting 460hp.

 

[Bikeman315]

Come on, "sports sedan"? An Escape? That's just silly to say.

OK, not a M3 or RS4 but it is darn good. It’s up there with my old G37. Not the power, of course, but it’s fun in the twisties. My daughter has a CX5 and that UV can haul. It definitely has the soul of a Miata.

 

[Bikeman315]

As a development engineer, I can tell you there is no "bad science" in hybrids. EV is hit or miss right now, but that is a limitation due to battery technology. Next gen batteries will be a game changer. Hybrid vehicles are really the best of both worlds. They will be even better when moving to 48V systems. Hybrid allows a small ICE engine for range with the ability to recapture wasted energy from things like braking. They also allow the engine to run a peak efficiency, no matter how the vehicle is being operated.

All that aside, your comment on DIG technology is not backed by science. DIG is superior to PFI in every way but PM/NOx emissions and cost, but these are marginal given modern catalyst systems and more efficient manufacturing processes. The technology is far from complicated, and is the reason 3rd gen coyotes are cleaner than previous gens while outputting 460hp.

Hack has his opinions that nothing you say is going to change. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We can all agree to disagree. For instance I agree with him that the SUV, especially the larger ones, are worse for the environment than small cars. On the other hand I do not believe that an entire worldwide industry would spend billions of dollars on false narratives and bad science.

 

[Joe B.]

I can understand why Ford would get out of the passenger car market. SUV are so very much more practical than a 4 door passenger car. The SUV can go down the highway as smooth as a passenger car and perform better than a passenger car in adverse weather conditions. I can not understand why anyone would want a passenger car. The SUV has left the passenger car to fade away into the past. Before the SUV , we had only passenger cars and pickups to choose from . The SUV is the vehicle of the future. The Mustang will survive because Ford needs a two door sporty vehicle.

I'll take a trunk over what is called cargo area in an SUV any day.

 

[Johnnybee]

We have a 2015 Rogue SL AWD. It gets fabulous fuel economy. Before some idiot at the dealership reset the lifetime fuel economy, it was showing something around 8.4L/100 km (28 mpUSg) over about 60K km. It's no sports sedan but it goes in the messy stuff very well. I was out yesterday and the roads were still pretty slick from a combination of freezing rain and light snow on top. I pulled away at a light while the sedan beside me just spun his wheels. The Rogue barely put any power to the rear wheels. Of course, I'm driving on virtually new Nokian WRG4 rubber, so that helps. But at the end of the day, if we travel somewhere, we take the Mustang, because I really don't like driving the Rogue. I never needed to be up high and prefer a car. But many, many people prefer the CUV/SUV option and have been voting with their wallets (or bank managers) for some time now. Luckily, I'm in a good point in my life, which hopefully results in the Mustang being a for life car, so I don't really have to worry about whether it goes away or not, although I hope for the rest of you young ones, it doesn't.

 

[nrc]

All UV's are not clown cars. You should drive an Escape or CX5. Both drive and handle like a sports sedan.

I have. They don't. The Escape doesn't drive as well as the the Focus or Fusion. The CX5 doesn't drive as well as the Mazda6. Yes, they drive just fine for the large majority of Americans.

I'm sure that CUVs and SUVs will continue to be popular. I just don't think they'll completely supplant passenger cars as some seem to think. People love CUVs because of the convenience that they offer. But fashions change and kids tend to reject what was uncool about their parents.

 

[Hack]

As a development engineer, I can tell you there is no "bad science" in hybrids. EV is hit or miss right now, but that is a limitation due to battery technology. Next gen batteries will be a game changer. Hybrid vehicles are really the best of both worlds. They will be even better when moving to 48V systems. Hybrid allows a small ICE engine for range with the ability to recapture wasted energy from things like braking. They also allow the engine to run a peak efficiency, no matter how the vehicle is being operated.

All that aside, your comment on DIG technology is not backed by science. DIG is superior to PFI in every way but PM/NOx emissions and cost, but these are marginal given modern catalyst systems and more efficient manufacturing processes. The technology is far from complicated, and is the reason 3rd gen coyotes are cleaner than previous gens while outputting 460hp.

I wasn't saying there's anything wrong with hybrid technology. Just that people are hypocrites if they buy a huge, porky hybrid vehicle.

I would prioritize cost and particle emissions as being more important than fuel economy, which is probably why we disagree.

DI is more complicated than a port fuel injection system by itself. In my opinion, it's unnecessary complication as well. I understand you want to be truthful and still refute what I was saying, so you changed the argument.

OK, not a M3 or RS4 but it is darn good. It’s up there with my old G37. Not the power, of course, but it’s fun in the twisties. My daughter has a CX5 and that UV can haul. It definitely has the soul of a Miata.

I don't know much at all about the CX5, but I seriously doubt it handles like a Miata. Yes you can put really stiff springs, shocks and sway bars on a vehicle to compensate for higher weight and high center of gravity, but the result isn't the same.

Hack has his opinions that nothing you say is going to change. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We can all agree to disagree. For instance I agree with him that the SUV, especially the larger ones, are worse for the environment than small cars. On the other hand I do not believe that an entire worldwide industry would spend billions of dollars on false narratives and bad science.

I think there are many people that just care about making money or gaining power rather than "saving the environment". If the laws were really about saving something, SUVs and pickups would have to meet the same standards as cars. But like many laws, the CAFE regulations don't do what the lawmakers say they are trying to do. What they do is raise the average cost of a new car - and the manufacturers don't mind that.

 

[BmacIL]

Hack has his opinions that nothing you say is going to change. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We can all agree to disagree. For instance I agree with him that the SUV, especially the larger ones, are worse for the environment than small cars. On the other hand I do not believe that an entire worldwide industry would spend billions of dollars on false narratives and bad science.

Yeah, you do have to be a particular kind of special and paranoid, nor have a true grasp on what science is in to believe this.

Like any new technology, DI has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages from a performance & emissions perspective are countered well by retaining the PFI system for idle/low speed and WOT. This does well to prevent the carbon build up on valves and keep the injectors cooler, reducing the need to run as rich all the time. The downside to all that is more complexity and cost.

 

[Zelek]

Yeah, you do have to be a particular kind of special and paranoid, nor have a true grasp on what science is in to believe this.

Like any new technology, DI has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages from a performance & emissions perspective are countered well by retaining the PFI system for idle/low speed and WOT. This does well to prevent the carbon build up on valves and keep the injectors cooler, reducing the need to run as rich all the time. The downside to all that is more complexity and cost.

Should see the amount of research Mazda did to counter the whole carbon buildup on their Skyactiv lineup by using a long tube header design to prevent it. Have yet to see a single 2014+ Mazda owner that posted to complain about carbon buildup. I'm wondering if my 18 Accord will see buildup issues. Seemed to plague the VW's and Audi's more than other cars and I feel like a lot of manufacturers have had more time to work on the issue over the years.

 

[bootlegger]

I would prioritize cost and particle emissions as being more important than fuel economy, which is probably why we disagree.

.

As stated before, cost is only marginally difference. There is no increased PM in a 3rd gen coyote with DI thanks to appropriate engine management, addition of duel injection sys, and catalysts. The benefit of DI is more than just fuel economy. It allows higher compression and more timing advance, which means increased HP. There is no market where more power and fuel economy doesn't end up being a marketable advantage. The Coyote fuel system is only more complicated because it has PFI and DI. A straight DI system only requires only more complicated ECU logic and the addition of a HP pump. For the shadetree mechanic, there isn't much more to maintaining them. Once you go to the piezo actuated injectors, you also gain longevity over the old port injectors. I have been working with piezo injectors for 7 years, and they almost always last longer than solenoid type.
Saying there is no need to have DIG is like saying there was no reason to transition from carburetors to PFI.

 

[bootlegger]

Should see the amount of research Mazda did to counter the whole carbon buildup on their Skyactiv lineup by using a long tube header design to prevent it. Have yet to see a single 2014+ Mazda owner that posted to complain about carbon buildup. I'm wondering if my 18 Accord will see buildup issues. Seemed to plague the VW's and Audi's more than other cars and I feel like a lot of manufacturers have had more time to work on the issue over the years.

You also will never see a 3rd gen Coyote owner complaining about PM and soot. Even when my base 93oct tune came from PBD and the car was running pig rich, zero soot out the back. Now that I am on E85, the exhaust smells nice as well.

 

[Hack]

Yeah, you do have to be a particular kind of special and paranoid, nor have a true grasp on what science is in to believe this.

Like any new technology, DI has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantages from a performance & emissions perspective are countered well by retaining the PFI system for idle/low speed and WOT. This does well to prevent the carbon build up on valves and keep the injectors cooler, reducing the need to run as rich all the time. The downside to all that is more complexity and cost.

That seems like a fair and balanced description of DI to me.

I won't go into insulting you or defending myself from your insults.

As stated before, cost is only marginally difference. There is no increased PM in a 3rd gen coyote with DI thanks to appropriate engine management, addition of duel injection sys, and catalysts. The benefit of DI is more than just fuel economy. It allows higher compression and more timing advance, which means increased HP. There is no market where more power and fuel economy doesn't end up being a marketable advantage. The Coyote fuel system is only more complicated because it has PFI and DI. A straight DI system only requires only more complicated ECU logic and the addition of a HP pump. For the shadetree mechanic, there isn't much more to maintaining them. Once you go to the piezo actuated injectors, you also gain longevity over the old port injectors. I have been working with piezo injectors for 7 years, and they almost always last longer than solenoid type.
Saying there is no need to have DIG is like saying there was no reason to transition from carburetors to PFI.

I think the improvement from carbs to PFI was great and amazing. The life of the engine was extended, service intervals were extended, engine economy was significantly improved, etc.

The change from port injection to direct injection is a very subtle improvement to function. And I don't believe that modern engines with DI are going to outlast the previous port injection engines.

Additional complexity and cost is not always an improvement. Or I should say, the improvement is not always worth it. I believe you might be right that the cost to build isn't that much higher, but years and years of experimentation are not cheap. And there are a lot of gunked up intake valves out there.

I would prefer a simple system with a few more cubic inches over extra high compression ratio and DI and PI and extra low tension rings, etc.

I understand that car manufacturers would rather not build engines that last an extremely long time and are really reliable for nearly a lifetime. They want engines to wear out. Additional complexity helps to make it more expensive to diagnose and repair engines, which the manufacturers prefer as well.

So all in all, the regulations that don't require vehicles to be small, but DO require them to be complicated.... are they working the way you want them to?

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