GT350 vs. GT350R (more reliable engine?)

[EFI]

If it was just a different pan, then he would have said the only difference is the oil pan. He didn’t say that. He also didn’t say “if you put a base GT350 motor without changing to the R pan then you would not have an R.” He did say, “if you put a base 350 motor in a GT350R then you don’t have an R anymore.”

That is what one of the top engineers on the program said. I’d take him at his word and not discount it as some small change like a difference of oil pan.

I report, that’s the facts from a person who was integral to the design of both the GT350/GT350R and GT500 programs, and that’s what he said, actually unsolicited during an interview. You either take the facts of what they said as a fact or you don’t.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning the guy or his credentials. Just that the way you described his comments makes me think it's purely in the oil pan, as like I said I'm having trouble coming up with what else could be considered "baffling" for oil control that's outside the oil pan. Yes there are ways to control oil in the design of the block, heads etc...but we know that the R and the non-R have the same block and heads...so whatever "baffling" he mentioned is outside of the engine block and heads.

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[honeybadger]

The differences between the two from 2015-2018 are in the cam phasers and hydraulic lifters. The R has some lifters/phasers that handle oil a bit better at high RPM (to better control valve timing). These won't affect your oil burn, oil pump or anything like that. It's just for valve timing.

It's not enough to warrant a tear down/trade in for track use IMHO. Definitely not enough for a street driven car. More of a "while you're in there" type of upgrade.

If your car isn't giving you issues now, it's far less likely to start. Drive it like you stole it and don't let the internet convince you that you need to be worried.

 

[porterror]

so in closing? The engine between a 2016-2018 GT350 and GT350R are slightly different, but nothing to help improve the engine "grenading" issue. This issue might be "addressed" with the 2019 GT350 model with the GT500 enhanced block. I get that right? So, in summary if I'm looking for a long term GT350 purchase (past warranty) I'd be best to look at the 2019+ GT350 or GT350R.

 

[thill444]

so in closing? The engine between a 2016-2018 GT350 and GT350R are slightly different, but nothing to help improve the engine "grenading" issue. This issue might be "addressed" with the 2019 GT350 model with the GT500 enhanced block. I get that right? So, in summary if I'm looking for a long term GT350 purchase (past warranty) I'd be best to look at the 2019+ GT350 or GT350R.

I would agree with that assessment. Will come down to budget. If you find a smoking deal on a 17-18 you can always add an extended warranty for peace of mind. I paid $48K and change for a 2018 w/1400 miles with more than 2/3rds of the warranty left and if I love the car and want to keep it will extend it to a 7 year or 10 year extended warranty. You can buy them online from various Ford dealers at good prices.

 

[Demonic]

so in closing? The engine between a 2016-2018 GT350 and GT350R are slightly different, but nothing to help improve the engine "grenading" issue. This issue might be "addressed" with the 2019 GT350 model with the GT500 enhanced block. I get that right? So, in summary if I'm looking for a long term GT350 purchase (past warranty) I'd be best to look at the 2019+ GT350 or GT350R.

Grenading isn't really an appropriate term. Many engines were replaced for oil consumption concerns alone. The 2019+ have the GT500 block, but there was never any evidence of the block being an issue before. There are 2019's and 2020's with oil issues too. Just buy the car, drive it, and if you're still concerned after several years you can get an extended warranty.

 

[JR369]

so in closing? The engine between a 2016-2018 GT350 and GT350R are slightly different, but nothing to help improve the engine "grenading" issue. This issue might be "addressed" with the 2019 GT350 model with the GT500 enhanced block. I get that right? So, in summary if I'm looking for a long term GT350 purchase (past warranty) I'd be best to look at the 2019+ GT350 or GT350R.

Not entirely correct. Yes 2016-2018 GT350R engines are slightly different from non R engines. Now add in that 2018 engines got new piston ring packs. Nobody can pin down exactly when these changes happened during the model year 2018. Best reasoning is mid to late production. However, 2018 failures or oil consumption issues do not seem to be as prevalent. It's 2020 now and we should have seen them by now. I'm currently at 5500 miles on my R with zero issues but living on a prayer against it "grenading"...apparently.

 

[dom418]

A lot of false information on the web which leads to paranoia among potential buyers. Just look at this thread. Lots of differing opinions mixed in with some facts.

they made millions, possibly a gazillion GT350s and most are just fine.

 

[torque124]

A lot of false information on the web which leads to paranoia among potential buyers. Just look at this thread. Lots of differing opinions mixed in with some facts.

they made millions, possibly a gazillion GT350s and most are just fine.

They did not literally make millions, no . Maybe tens of thousands by now ... I hope they would stop making them all together.

 

[thill444]

A lot of false information on the web which leads to paranoia among potential buyers. Just look at this thread. Lots of differing opinions mixed in with some facts.

they made millions, possibly a gazillion GT350s and most are just fine.

I agree on the bolded part. There have definitely been engine failures, but even some of the failures I question. I have seen several polls now on Facebook where some of the people who reported that they had an engine failure ended up admitting that they never even owned the car. Go figure you have butthurt GM, Dodge, Subaru, etc fanboys who join a GT350 owners group and then lie about engine failures. You just cannot believe everything you read on the internet.

 

[key01]

These are amazing motors, but high strung and like to rattle things. Regardless of tweaks between years make sure you have a warranty in place if you are nervous. Ford has been very good at replacing motors as we have seen. My 2017 could start drinking oil at any time, but I bought an extended warranty out to 2025 when I bought it new. I wanted to enjoy it and if it goes South I don’t care. A member here with a ‘19 didn’t get to 500 miles before his motor seized. Once again, high strung and anything can happen.

 

[PP0001]

They did not literally make millions, no . Maybe tens of thousands by now ... I hope they would stop making them all together.

For the first model 5 years Ford will have built ~23,000 GT350/R's and those numbers are based on the FRAP produced ~5000+ cars for the 2019 model year as I have not been able to secure the 2019 production numbers to date.

I do know that there were at least 799 R models for the 2019 model year therefore suggest that ~5000+ cars in total for 2019 is not out of the question.

If we take into consideration the 2020 model year I will suggest that the FRAP will have produced well in excess of 25,000 GT350/R's over the first 6 model years.

 

[firestarter2]

I will add to this with information that I gained from one of the top engineers on the GT350 and GT500 programs when I spoke to him at the media events for the GT500 last October in Las Vegas.

When interviewing him about the difference between the GT500 and GT350 he said:

The motors in the 2015-2018 GT350 and GT350R are different. The base cars of those years could not reach the g-forces around the track that the GT350R could, so there was baffling that prevent starvation at high g-forces that was not implemented in the base cars. A direct quote from him was that “If you replace your 2015-2018 R motor with a base GT350 motor, you do not have an R anymore.”

He said that because the base model in 2019 could reach g-forces on track that required baffling, that is why all 2019 GT350/GT350Rs receive the same exact motor that have baffling.

So there you have it. 2015-2018 motors are different, change was because of ability to reach a certain g-force threshold that required baffling, and all 2019 models receive the same baffling.

None of these changes were the result of engine oil issues of broken motors but was due to on track Perfromance.

So the Gt350 didn't have baffles because no one would ever put stickier tires on it? that makes zero sense. Not saying you were not told that.

 

[JAJ]

I agree with the posters pointing out the internet weirdness of the evolving Voodoo engine story.

Two things stand out - first, that they're failure-prone. Maybe and maybe not - if 25,000 have been produced, then there's room for some failures and because of the ability of the words "Voodoo blows up" to drive page views, they've had lots of attention.

The second thing, and this is the one that really baffles me, is that newer engines are in some sense "better" and that there have been "upgrades" along the way. There's literally no evidence of that anywhere. If 2017's were an upgrade over 2016's, then why did they seem to have more problems? Same with 2018's and 2019's. Certainly, there have been changes to internals and even the block, but it's more likely that the changes were cost-reduction measures than they were performance or reliability improvement measures. Manufacturers put new products out with an initial, highly engineered and tested build, then they do smaller tests as time goes by to make the product cheaper to produce. They will occasionally make a change to improve reliability, but only if there's a measurable problem (like a dealer network that can't install spin-on filters correctly). If the engine is on-target reliability-wise, even when the internet is on fire with "problems" and "failures", they'll just keep production rolling while they find ways to make it cheaper.

 

[btown93]

I agree with the posters pointing out the internet weirdness of the evolving Voodoo engine story.

Two things stand out - first, that they're failure-prone. Maybe and maybe not - if 25,000 have been produced, then there's room for some failures and because of the ability of the words "Voodoo blows up" to drive page views, they've had lots of attention.

The second thing, and this is the one that really baffles me, is that newer engines are in some sense "better" and that there have been "upgrades" along the way. There's literally no evidence of that anywhere. If 2017's were an upgrade over 2016's, then why did they seem to have more problems? Same with 2018's and 2019's. Certainly, there have been changes to internals and even the block, but it's more likely that the changes were cost-reduction measures than they were performance or reliability improvement measures. Manufacturers put new products out with an initial, highly engineered and tested build, then they do smaller tests as time goes by to make the product cheaper to produce. They will occasionally make a change to improve reliability, but only if there's a measurable problem (like a dealer network that can't install spin-on filters correctly). If the engine is on-target reliability-wise, even when the internet is on fire with "problems" and "failures", they'll just keep production rolling while they find ways to make it cheaper.

Very logical post.. If I recall somewhere, there was discussion on the intake/exhaust valves on the voodoo. Somewhere along the line the OE vendor changed where they were produced. First it was Germany/Europe..and somewhere along the way it became Mexico. Your post also reminded me of something I read on a youtube comment on a failed voodoo. I cut and pasted the quote:

"Bad thing is Ford cheaper up the bearings on these engines. Went from 2 coated bearings to just one coated bearing. How do I know this you ask? I work for the company that supply these bearings to Ford for these engines."

Certainly some food for thought. Obviously, its a youtube comment so it could be complete BS. Interesting either way. I've been following along for a while now in the GT350 world. First it was bad thermostats, then CV axles, then Oil Pumps were the reason for engine failure. Seems its shifted to oil consumption/ spun bearings. Conventional thinking is the OEs make improvements as time goes on. Historically speaking, first year and/or early production have had the kinks that get worked out and improved. Either way, I guess that is why we have warranty.

here is the link to the discussion on valve country of manufacture post #282

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/gt350-engine-refresh-time.115139/page-19#post-2471898

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