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Last year for V8 2024 (and Mach-E discussion) via Ford Performance conference call

Bikeman315

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5) By 2024 the V8 engine will not meet emission standards with the “green new deal”. Ford doesn’t have or the money to make them compliant at this time.
OK, for the billionth time, there is "NO" Green New Deal. For now it's a bunch of ideas on a piece of paper. Most of the rest of the world is moving ahead with plans to reduce carbon emissions and attempt to slow the accelerated trend in global warming. China is not because, well they are China and they can do whatever the hell they please. The US is getting there with all of the rollbacks that have taken place over the past three years. Why is that? Simple, money & oil. The oil/gas companies are making billions and we little people are arguing over the cost of regular vs premium gas. Meanwhile look at what we are spending in renewable resources. Not much. Our government (all sides) has made it very clear that it doesn't give a shit. And we, the public that pays these guys and girls suffer because of it.

As far as Ford not having money, where the heck did you get that idea?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-t...higan-as-part-of-new-uaw-contract-11576612129
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IronG

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The average price of an automobile in the US in 2019 is $37K. Cars that used to be in the $20K-25k range are now $30K-$35K. There will be affordable EV's under the average range within the next few years. And that is not even taking into account Federal and State tax breaks.
You are correct on the new cars avg 37k, but you need to avg in all the used car sales which dwarf new car sales. Here is a link to the amounts each year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/

Avearge price of a used car is about 7k. https://www.costevaluation.com/average-cost/used-car/ I'm too lazy to do the math, but my rough estimate is about 15k for a car purchased in the US.
 

Bikeman315

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That website quotes articles from 30 to 80 years ago. Hardly relevant today. And largely tilted to the "there is no problem" side.

If you really want to know the effects of global warming go somewhere that the people are really being hurt by it. I was in Alaska last year and believe me when I tell you they, the Alaskan people, understand the problem and they knowingly admit it exists. Up there it's not a political issue it is one of surviving. The heat this past spring and summer is like nothing they have ever experienced. The effects of that heat have been devastating to the Permafrost.

We down here in the lower 48 can argue that all of this is made up political BS. Ask the people who are living it. You will hear the real story.
 

Bikeman315

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You are correct on the new cars avg 37k, but you need to avg in all the used car sales which dwarf new car sales. Here is a link to the amounts each year. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183713/value-of-us-passenger-cas-sales-and-leases-since-1990/

Avearge price of a used car is about 7k. https://www.costevaluation.com/average-cost/used-car/ I'm too lazy to do the math, but my rough estimate is about 15k for a car purchased in the US.
Agreed, my bad. I should have said "New" cars. That said the reality is that the average used car buyer will not be able to afford an EV any time soon. Then again they cannot afford a new Mustang either.
 

SergeyMelnik

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Let them release their shitty electric cars and then end the V8. Then no one will buy them and people who want a real V8 mustang will just buy the older cars. Fuck the ford "execs" and their global warming hoax.
 

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Hack

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:facepalm:Surprise. Predictions and estimations are not that accurate.... Doesn't mean the science behind it is false....
If the predictions are inaccurate that means the mathematical models are incorrect. Scientists need to be open to evidence that either proves or disproves their theories. And global warming is a theory - not a fact.

The difference between "the sky is falling" and a big nothing burger is in the mathematical models and their accuracy.

If you understand my point you will realize that I don't want to get rid of V8s or spend trillions on "science" if the predictions aren't accurate.

Until we get predictions that actually come true I don't believe that the models are correct.

Don't treat this climate stuff like it's a religion you have faith in despite having no evidence. Treat it like a science experiment. Are we getting the results we think we should be getting? Not so far.
 

IronG

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You literally have no F*cking idea how these climate models and mathematical models work do you? It absolutely does not mean the science is false. It means they missed a variable or overestimated the strength of another.... Does not change the underlying trend and sources. BUT... this is not the thread for this discussion. Back on topic.

It is absolutely amazing to me how people on this forum seem so willing to believe BS sources, deny basic numbers, believe they know more then those that study these topics for a living, simply because they do not like the outcome....
Zack, I get where you are coming from, but the problem that some folks don't believe in it is because the "experts" have been wrong before, not just with the climate per se, but many other things. I really don't think anyone knows if climate change is really affected by what us mere humans are doing, but it is factual that climate change itself is real. My hang up on the subject is that there are people that actually think they know the answer...they believe in it like a religion, not a science. Most scientists invested in the subject will say they can't prove it, they just interpret the data they have and give their best guess. I sorta see it like the weather, you get told a huge snow storm is going to hit and all it does is rain, or it just ends up being cloudy, but the data showed it was going to snow. I do think there is a lot of merit in keeping the environment clean, but all too often I see trash spewn all over the place. To me, if everyone did not litter, recycled, (everything), did not waste so much and yeah, less crud going into the air, that would be awesome. I am much more worried about health qualities than about houses along the ocean getting zapped in a hurricane. Anyway, this is not the forum for climate stuff, there are far better ones out there than this if you want to debate the subject. As for the Mach E and Tesla, the reason I dislike them is pretty simple, the interiors seem half finished and they used Mustang in the name with Mach E. Give the Mach E a more normal looking interior and lop off the Mustang name, I would be quite interested. Until then, Ford and Tesla and whomever will need to wait for my (or my wife) money or my kids. I have 5 and none like either and it is not just because of me. I live in a fairly affluent area and there are those with Teslas, the folks I know bought them for the cool factor as if was the "it" toy at Christmas. They don't have a lot of complaints about them, but they really only use them to commute. They have other vehicles for fun and to haul the family around. This will change over time, but for most people the time is not yet anyway.
 

Docscurlock

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I was answering posts challenging global warming and it's causes / impacts. I' wasn't saying I wasn't a hypocrite for driving a V8!

I'm not a global warming campaigner but I do believe the work and research of those who do know what they are talking about. We are just about to buy a PHEV where most of our mileage will be in EV mode charged from our solar panels and the Mustang doesn't do a huge mileage. I love my V8 but is doomed. There are only two naturally aspirated V8 cars sold in the UK now (Mustang and Lexus ISF) Both will be gone soon. Even forced induction V8's and above will be gone as well over here.

If you look at the polar ice caps they are indeed vanishing - Greenland will indeed be green again in the summer.
This here is the problem with climate change junkies, they just spout crap statistics into the air.
http:/nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
The daily growth rate for November was generally steady, averaging 98,600 square kilometers (38,100 square miles) per day, compared to the 1981 to 2010 average of 69,600 square kilometers (26,900 square miles). Overall, ice extent increased by 2.75 million square kilometers (1.06 million square miles) through the month, somewhat larger than the 1981 to 2010 average for the month of 2.07 million square kilometers (799,000 square miles)./

The Greenlanders will probably appreciate a little warm weather anyway.
 

Bikeman315

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If the predictions are inaccurate that means the mathematical models are incorrect. Scientists need to be open to evidence that either proves or disproves their theories. And global warming is a theory - not a fact.

The difference between "the sky is falling" and a big nothing burger is in the mathematical models and their accuracy.

If you understand my point you will realize that I don't want to get rid of V8s or spend trillions on "science" if the predictions aren't accurate.

Until we get predictions that actually come true I don't believe that the models are correct.

Don't treat this climate stuff like it's a religion you have faith in despite having no evidence. Treat it like a science experiment. Are we getting the results we think we should be getting? Not so far.
Hack you do make some very good points. But, (you know that was coming :)) ask the folks in Alaska about the Permafrost. They cannot afford to sit back and wait for predictions to come true.
 

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IronG

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Agreed, my bad. I should have said "New" cars. That said the reality is that the average used car buyer will not be able to afford an EV any time soon. Then again they cannot afford a new Mustang either.
We agree 100%....what were the chances! The thing is, the majority of people that will buy the Mach E seem to be those already looking for a EV and also want to get the tax credit. Once that goes away and fees start showing up at the DMV for road tax like you pay in gasoline, the savings and allure will take a hit. That won't stop people from buying them and EV's eventually outselling ICE cars, but it will slow it down. Right now EV's are in their golden age. Not too far in the future, they won't be the "cool thing" and people may find they miss the ole gas engines and cool interiors and body shapes. People are a fickle bunch for sure.
 

Bikeman315

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This here is the problem with climate change junkies, they just spout crap statistics into the air.
http:/nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
The daily growth rate for November was generally steady, averaging 98,600 square kilometers (38,100 square miles) per day, compared to the 1981 to 2010 average of 69,600 square kilometers (26,900 square miles). Overall, ice extent increased by 2.75 million square kilometers (1.06 million square miles) through the month, somewhat larger than the 1981 to 2010 average for the month of 2.07 million square kilometers (799,000 square miles)./

The Greenlanders will probably appreciate a little warm weather anyway.
It really pays to read all the way to the bottom.
In the Antarctic, sea ice is in the midst of its sharp seasonal decline. It is currently tracking near 2017 levels, the record low year for minimum extent. November extent was 14.89 million square kilometers (5.75 million square miles), which is 1.01 million square kilometers (390,000 square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 average. It is the second lowest November extent in the satellite record, about 670,000 square kilometers (259,000 square miles) above November 2016.
 

Bikeman315

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We agree 100%....what were the chances! The thing is, the majority of people that will buy the Mach E seem to be those already looking for a EV and also want to get the tax credit. Once that goes away and fees start showing up at the DMV for road tax like you pay in gasoline, the savings and allure will take a hit. That won't stop people from buying them and EV's eventually outselling ICE cars, but it will slow it down. Right now EV's are in their golden age. Not too far in the future, they won't be the "cool thing" and people may find they miss the ole gas engines and cool interiors and body shapes. People are a fickle bunch for sure.
LOL.......
Once that goes away and fees start showing up at the DMV for road tax like you pay in gasoline, the savings and allure will take a hit.
Funny you should mention that. My daughter who just moved to Myrtle Beach went to register her Honda hybrid. South Carolina has a $60 use fee for hybrids and $100 for EV's (both for two years). The reason......because the state want hybrid and EV users to pay their fair share of the gas tax used for road maintenance. Since hybrids and EV's use less or no gas the state came up with the ludicrous fee. I wonder how many other states do this.
 

Norm Peterson

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Just as you stated... A TT V6 still can not match the emissions targets for Europe. The targets in Europe were meant for one thing and one thing only, push the automotive industry to EV.
Precisely. The emissions targets were intentionally placed beyond what an ICE with today's ICE technologies can reasonably achieve for political reasons.


Norm
 

OX1

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Fair enough I didn't didn't make my point very clearly. The issue when you get to those levels of performance is traction on road tyres so you pretty much hit a brick wall - that and what is actually something people want to experience. Sub 3 second 0-60 can be quite unpleasant on the human body for many people.

The big EV advantage is torque which in day to day driving is far more important than headline bhp figures. Plus that torque is available instantly from zero rpm.

I suppose the real extremes come with things like the Veyron / Chiron where ICE is at the limit of what can be achieved in a car (it took them ages to get past 1000bhp as well as a lot of money), and then compare that to 2000bhp Lotus Evija which is hugely less complex.
How fast do you really need this response? It's already easy for me to either be
severally attention grabbing to the cops, or pissing off everyone around me (apparently) @
0-60's in the mid 4's (and that's in a family truckster Fusion).

At a typical street light, I will be out 4-5 car-lengths before average traffic barely starts getting rolling.
As mentioned, many times that seems to piss off others. And how fast can you squirt into spaces in traffic,
again, without either startling or pissing off the other traffic? People just don't drive faster than 7 seconds 0-60
and virtually everything on the road does that now.

So the biggest supposed draw of EV's gives you something in accel, that most people could care less about. It's not like
when cars used to do 0-60 in the 12's, and people really thought they were slow.

Anyway, before V-8's go away, I'm hoping someone makes a hybrid muscle car that has the typical V-8 drivetrain, but electric
on front wheels (seems like C8 might go this route). Would love to see a Std GT with a bolt on TVS and 100 Hp electric on each front
wheel, that 60's in the low 1.6's (roughly 0-60 in 3 seconds) on the street. And then could also run on all electric, for say 30-40 miles.

Could be a lot more rounded with no drag radials (maybe not even super aggressive summer tires) needed on the street, AWD for snow,
and even able to be used without firing up V-8.

2.3 second 60' time = 35.5 mph @60' = 7.0 second 0-60 time
2.2 second 60' time = 37.1 mph @60' = 6.5 second 0-60 time
2.1 second 60' time = 38.9 mph @60' = 5.9 second 0-60 time
2.0 second 60' time = 40.9 mph @60' = 5.2 second 0-60 time
1.9 second 60' time = 43.0 mph @60' = 4.6 second 0-60 time
1.8 second 60' time = 45.5 mph @60' = 4.0 second 0-60 time
1.7 second 60' time = 48.1 mph @60' = 3.4 second 0-60 time
1.6 second 60' time = 51.1 mph @60' = 2.9 second 0-60 time
1.5 second 60' time = 54.5 mph @60' = 2.2 second 0-60 time
1.4 second 60' time = 58.4 mph @60' = 1.5 second 0-60 time
1.36 second 60' time = 60.0 mph @60' = 1.36 second 0-60 time
1.3 second 60' time = 62.9 mph @60' = 1.2 second 0-60 time
1.2 second 60' time = 68.1 mph @60' = 1.1 second 0-60 time
1.1 second 60' time = 74.3 mph @60' = 0.9 second 0-60 time
1.0 second 60' time = 81.8 mph @60' = 0.7 second 0-60 time
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