Randy Pobst Twitter Today

[shogun32]

Same fucking tires. Not R vs regular cups. They buy the same fucking tires for two cars, drive them same day.

which was my point some time ago, WyTF are these magazines not running the same damn tire size and compound (whenever possible) on their so-called comparisons? Nobody gives a wet fart about factory-equipped tires. Nobody with any sense is going to take the GT500 base to the track on PS4S tires so why even waste the time doing so? Is there some kind of legal clause that prohibits these magazines from doing USEFUL comparisions? Ok, fine you can post best time on factory tires, but then you throw them in the nearest dumpster and you go put on the real shoes so everyone is competing with that variable removed (as much as possible). And where you have carbon wheels vs aluminum, you run both and see what the contribution was. I mean they had the track rented for the day. WTH were they doing with all the track time at their disposal?

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[Eritas]

which was my point some time ago, WyTF are these magazines not running the same damn tire size and compound (whenever possible) on their so-called comparisons? Nobody gives a wet fart about factory-equipped tires. Nobody with any sense is going to take the GT500 base to the track on PS4S tires so why even waste the time doing so? Is there some kind of legal clause that prohibits these magazines from doing USEFUL comparisions?

Because these factory equipped tires are custom made for the car, and not just off the shelf cup 2 or PS4S.

 

[shogun32]

Because these factory equipped tires are custom made for the car, and not just off the shelf cup 2 or PS4S.

So what? Run the tires you get from the distributor by the container load. Just because the Porche-specific model has 3-plies and the lard-ass Mustang needs the 4-ply, you run everyone on the 4-ply in addition to the 'factory custom' and publish both sets of numbers. But in this specific case we're comparing 2 versions of the same car. Run the exact same compound, size and construction on both and see what shakes out.

 

[Eritas]

So what? Run the tires you get from the distributor by the container load. Just because the Porche-specific model has 3-plies and the lard-ass Mustang needs the 4-ply, you run everyone on the 4-ply in addition to the 'factory custom' and publish both sets of numbers. But in this specific case we're comparing 2 versions of the same car. Run the exact same compound, size and construction on both and see what shakes out.

I don't think a 305 designed for a rear-engine Porsche will have anywhere near the same design or construction as a front heavy Mustang. These tires are so trick, putting mustang tires on a Porsche advantages the mustang, and vice versa.

Even putting a third party tire on both cars will still advantage one car over the other.

 

[shogun32]

If formula 1 racing (not to mention pretty much all racing) uses spec tires which make no distinction between Camaro, Mustang, Porche, Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari or whatever in construction, why on earth would a magazine test targeted at amateurs give a damn about car-specific tires? The factory is free to pull whatever shenanigans they want when supplying initial purchase tires, but the consumer is going to choose from the universal parts bin. Hell, depending on their budget they're going to go buy Federal tires or something like that. You want to talk about "not optimized for application"! A cross-brand test, let alone a sister car test you remove as many variables as possible. This means you run both GT500s on the same exact tire, and you run the base model with the R's wheels and tabulate the differences.

 

[Eritas]

If formula 1 racing (not to mention pretty much all racing) uses spec tires which make no distinction between Camaro, Mustang, Porche, Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari or whatever in construction, why on earth would a magazine test targeted at amateurs give a damn about car-specific tires? The factory is free to pull whatever shenanigans they want when supplying initial purchase tires, but the consumer is going to choose from the universal parts bin. Hell, depending on their budget they're going to go buy Federal tires or something like that. You want to talk about "not optimized for application"! A cross-brand test, let alone a sister car test you remove as many variables as possible. This means you run both GT500s on the same exact tire, and you run the base model with the R's wheels and tabulate the differences.

Because the suspension is setup for those custom tires, and that's why Porsche and Ford and most manufacturers of these track cars strongly recommend oem replacement tires and not replace them with "universal parts bin tires".

If you want a "spec tire", then you need different alignments, springs, shocks, and swaybars to optimise the spec tire. Otherwise said spec tire could advantage one car over the other and will tell you nothing.

 

[stanglife]

If formula 1 racing (not to mention pretty much all racing) uses spec tires which make no distinction between Camaro, Mustang, Porche, Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari or whatever in construction, why on earth would a magazine test targeted at amateurs give a damn about car-specific tires? The factory is free to pull whatever shenanigans they want when supplying initial purchase tires, but the consumer is going to choose from the universal parts bin. Hell, depending on their budget they're going to go buy Federal tires or something like that. You want to talk about "not optimized for application"! A cross-brand test, let alone a sister car test you remove as many variables as possible. This means you run both GT500s on the same exact tire, and you run the base model with the R's wheels and tabulate the differences.

I don't understand how you don't understand this.

2 things. 1 - the car is a base. It's interesting to know how it performs on the track but just like 2016 Tech packages - you probably shouldn't be considering a base GT500 if you intend to track it. 2 - The suspension and especially the ABS is tuned for both the wheel/tire weight and the compound - how many crazy ass combos (that the car isn't tuned for) would you expect Ford to test? It comes off the showroom floor with X config - test that, done.

 

[V00D00]

I feel like people are arguing the wrong things.

Pobst didnt sandbag cftp, but surely did base, in order to keep the zle above and to keep them happy/able.to talk about something

The 5 seconds aint 5 seconds, ita probably within 3, amd those 3 are the difference between everything youre discussing

 

[Hi-PO Stang]

I think the majority of car owners want to see how the car right from the factory performs. The car enthusiast mags only have the responsibility to test the new cars as factory stock. The magazines that specialize in modifying cars can be the ones whom try different tires, camber and caster settings and can do the comparisons of lap times and drag times. I go to Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords when I want to see what modified Mustangs can do. Motor Trend and Car & Driver provide me with results for cars straight from the factory.

 

[shogun32]

ok, so if you slapped mass market (or heck, the 'Ford Performance'-specific) cup2 on a base model GT500 that was laboriously optimized for a one-off PS4S construction, why do we think it'll close the gap on the 'R'? Everything is set up wrong, right? Or if we commit the ultimate sin and slap the R's wheels on the base, the MR and anti-lock braking algorithms will go all haywire so surely the lap time would be lousy...

I don't live in the rarified air of 6-figure cars so don't grok this whole custom tires insanity.

IMO Ford et. al. should be tuning their cars to mass market tires (pick 3 class leaders and average) or magazine tests should adopt the practice of choosing a spec tire and only running cross-brand track comparisons based on that one tire. If the Ford or Porsche falls on it's face, that's too bad. The factory should have done a better job tuning the car well clear of the knife edge.

I guess now I have context for this slavish infatuation with 'factory' tires.

 

[Eritas]

Why be mediocre across 3 off the shelf tires when they can engineer the tires specifically for the car and the cars setup for the tires to deliver far better lap times than trying to come up with a setup that is okay for various tires?

GM has custom Goodyear's for the Camaros and Chester Michelins for the Z06 and ZR1. Why should Ford do anything different? Why would t they also make custom tires that make the car drive and handle better and turn faster laps?

 

[shogun32]

Why be mediocre across 3 off the shelf tires when they can engineer the tires specifically for the car and the cars setup for the tires to deliver far better lap times than trying to come up with a setup that is okay for various tires?

because rank amateurs circulating a track on a highly proprietary tire is pointless for bragging rights and useful comparisons, when every race series uses spec tires - the ONLY use case where a proprietary tire would pay useful dividends in wins and championships; thus PR, consumer interest and bump in sales.

But since they must use a spec tire of the day, that means all that fancy tuning goes out the window and teams have to totally redo their car to make the most of it. That 24.2mm rear sway that only worked "properly" with FP Cup2 now has to be replaced with one that works with the IMSA Conti-whatever. All of FP's tuning and working with a tire vendor to come up with the "one true tire' (some one-off construction, compound or tread depth), was an exercise in futility. Ditto spring rate selection, ABS tuning etc.

I'm not aware that the Corvette is saddled with "only works with the one tire".

 

[TDC]

For everyone that thinks just slapping sport cup 2 tires on a vehicle will shave seconds off, take a look at this video.



Cliff notes:

On this particular vehicle around this particular track, the sport cup 2 tires were worth .06 seconds over the PS4S tires. You heard that right. Not 5 seconds. Not 2 seconds. Not even 1/2 a second.

Once again, there is more to the equation than just tires.

Three problems with the information you used to say tires are not that big of a deal:
- the video data is FUBAR. The lap time being shown while he is driving does not agree with the listed results of the dry weather test. At the bottom of the dry weather test it says an average of 3 laps for dry handling. This confuses the data and makes me question the whole video. Is the lap time being shown the BEST lap for each tire or is it recreating the 3 lap average
- no info about G force was recorded or info regarding this driver’s ability
- the track is short so time savings due to a sticky tire is minimized. 1:15 second lap time for a slow car like the Focus ST must be a short track, say 1 mile or so.

Having driven at several tracks with different tire compounds I know moving from something like a 300 tread wear Pilot Super Sport or RE11 to an sticky compound tire (NT01, RE71R, PSC2) is worth 2-3 seconds on a 3 mile circuit like Watkins Glen and 1-2 seconds on a 2 mile circuit like NJMP Thunderbolt with the same driver.

 

[shogun32]

I know moving from something like a 300 tread wear Pilot Super Sport or RE11 to an sticky compound tire (NT01, RE71R, PSC2) is worth 2-3 seconds on a 3 mile circuit like Watkins Glen and 1-2 seconds on a 2 mile circuit like NJMP Thunderbolt with the same driver.

exactly. All this article concluded was that PS4S == slow, Cup2R == fast. As if we didn't know that umpteen times over? I want to know how how close (or not) the base model got to the R when it had the same tires as it's brother, when it had the same wheels+tires as it's brother. And if it also had the same camber/toe config as it's brother. Those are all perfectly reasonable and obvious questions to ask. We got nothing of value. Not even a blasted lap time!

Not that I give a damn about a professional driver with $18000 more expensive car went 5 seconds faster, but surely if I was a base owner, I'd like to know what kind of lap time ROI I might get with a simple tire swap and a little more camber. Obviously I could go measure it myself, but it would be rather more interesting to see what a pro driver could do with the same changes.

They expect people to pay for articles that provide nothing of value? No wonder the mags are folding at a rapid clip.

 

[Eritas]

because rank amateurs circulating a track on a highly proprietary tire is pointless for bragging rights and useful comparisons, when every race series uses spec tires - the ONLY use case where a proprietary tire would pay useful dividends in wins and championships; thus PR, consumer interest and bump in sales.

But since they must use a spec tire of the day, that means all that fancy tuning goes out the window and teams have to totally redo their car to make the most of it. That 24.2mm rear sway that only worked "properly" with FP Cup2 now has to be replaced with one that works with the IMSA Conti-whatever. All of FP's tuning and working with a tire vendor to come up with the "one true tire' (some one-off construction, compound or tread depth), was an exercise in futility. Ditto spring rate selection, ABS tuning etc.

I'm not aware that the Corvette is saddled with "only works with the one tire".

Racing series use spec tires so Ford should on their street cars when every manufacturer from GM to Porsche to Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, BMW, etc... All work with tire companies to make custom tires for specific performance model road cars. Ya, makes sense to me

No one said these cars "only" work with the custom tires, but rather you probably won't get an off the shelf tire that works better as a dual purpose street and track tire than these custom tires.

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