LT5 in a ZLE - GT500 killer

[02gtnh]

Whether it's nipping at heels or not, most reviewers said they would buy the Mustang. None of us make money with lap times, so the lap times aren't critical. What really matters is if you enjoy the car.

If you love Camaro you should definitely buy one. Not enough people are doing that and I'd really like to see GM keep building them.

one thing I really give kudos to Ford is there exhaust sound. Makes the GM performances cars sound sick. And most reviews you hear, the exhaust seems to be the biggest compliment wether a mag review or just someone test driving it. To many, that is one of the biggest selling point. GM needs to make there performance cars sound like a performance car. I would love my Vette sound like the GT or even the GT350.

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[JohnnyUtah]

Whether it's nipping at heels or not, most reviewers said they would buy the Mustang. None of us make money with lap times, so the lap times aren't critical. What really matters is if you enjoy the car.

If you love Camaro you should definitely buy one. Not enough people are doing that and I'd really like to see GM keep building them.

No doubt. Just commenting on some folks trying to pretend that the performance is close between the 350R and ZLE.... it isn't.

I bet lots of people will prefer the GT350R over the GT500 as well for a variety of reasons. Doesnt necessarily mean they are close in performance.

 

[9secondko]

No doubt. Just commenting on some folks trying to pretend that the performance is close between the 350R and ZLE.... it isn't.

I bet lots of people will prefer the GT350R over the GT500 as well for a variety of reasons. Doesnt necessarily mean they are close in performance.

it definitely is considering one is NA and the other supercharged. And it depends on the track.

But I agree on the part about subjective bias for a carb I just saw a Mustang fan video where one of the guys who drive the gt500 said the gt350R is better even though it’s slower and doesn’t handle as good - simply because it’s a manual and the gt500 is so engineered that it feels like Using a cheat code.

to me, the better performer In the same category is the winner. Not whichever someone happens to like more for whatever reason

 

[1mic]

Whether it's nipping at heels or not, most reviewers said they would buy the Mustang. None of us make money with lap times, so the lap times aren't critical. What really matters is if you enjoy the car.

If you love Camaro you should definitely buy one. Not enough people are doing that and I'd really like to see GM keep building them.

It's not nipping at the heels, lol tf outta here with that shit.
the gt350r is slower than a regular zl1. The 350r is neck/neck with a regular 1le, not a zl1 1le or regular zl1.

Need to correct you mustang nut huggers @9secondko. Just because people are skeptical of the gt500 and use real world data doesnt mean they are haters. The real haters are people like blackqhole.
We've only seen one video of what the gt500 does on track and you guys have shot your load.

I thought this thread was about performance, nobody gives a damn about sales or which a reviewer would rather buy. We already know sales are tanking with the camaro.

Again lol at nipping at the heels with a 4 second gap.

 

[Hack]

It's not nipping at the heels, lol tf outta here with that shit.
the gt350r is slower than a regular zl1. The 350r is neck/neck with a regular 1le, not a zl1 1le or regular zl1.

Need to correct you mustang nut huggers @9secondko. Just because people are skeptical of the gt500 and use real world data doesnt mean they are haters. The real haters are people like blackqhole.
We've only seen one video of what the gt500 does on track and you guys have shot your load.

I thought this thread was about performance, nobody gives a damn about sales or which a reviewer would rather buy. We already know sales are tanking with the camaro.

Again lol at nipping at the heels with a 4 second gap.

Go ahead and buy a car you hate just because it's a couple seconds faster when Randy drives it. I have no problem with that. It's your life. You might even enjoy the car if you have the money to only drive it on track and nowhere else.

This thread is a comparison of two cars. One of those cars is only a theoretical car, not even a real car. If you don't even want to buy that theoretical car, it definitely isn't "killing" any other car.

 

[millhouse]

It's not nipping at the heels, lol tf outta here with that shit.
the gt350r is slower than a regular zl1. The 350r is neck/neck with a regular 1le, not a zl1 1le or regular zl1.

A couple points on this.

The SS 1LE is NOT neck/neck with the pre 2020 350R. In the only same driver/same day testing the 350R proved to be 1.66 seconds around Laguna. That is significant. Also, the 2020 350R is going to be faster yet.

What wasn't significant was the 0.39 second advantage the ZL1 has over the GT350R. Much more neck and neck. And before anyone spouts off that the R is much more race oriented, let's not forget that these cars have comparable suspensions. While the ZL1 has wider tires, the R has a better compound. There is also an obvious HP and Tq disparity between the two vehicles.

I do agree though, the Zl1 1LE is much...much faster than the 350 (as it should be). It's far more of a "no compromise" car than anything Ford has produced in any mustang.

 

[1mic]

Go ahead and buy a car you hate just because it's a couple seconds faster when Randy drives it. I have no problem with that. It's your life. You might even enjoy the car if you have the money to only drive it on track and nowhere else.

This thread is a comparison of two cars. One of those cars is only a theoretical car, not even a real car. If you don't even want to buy that theoretical car, it definitely isn't "killing" any other car.

The regular ZL1 will be even faster on the street. Most of the people comparing this car in this thread are not track junkies, so performance, no matter what a reviewer says, the ZL1 is faster and quicker.
I dont know where you got killing from, but a 3+ second gap is killing are gt350's.

A couple points on this.

The SS 1LE is NOT neck/neck with the pre 2020 350R. In the only same driver/same day testing the 350R proved to be 1.66 seconds around Laguna. That is significant. Also, the 2020 350R is going to be faster yet.

What wasn't significant was the 0.39 second advantage the ZL1 has over the GT350R. Much more neck and neck. And before anyone spouts off that the R is much more race oriented, let's not forget that these cars have comparable suspensions. While the ZL1 has wider tires, the R has a better compound. There is also an obvious HP and Tq disparity between the two vehicles.

I do agree though, the Zl1 1LE is much...much faster than the 350 (as it should be). It's far more of a "no compromise" car than anything Ford has produced in any mustang.

Its hard to find same day comparison, but the regular ZL1 is faster than the R. Check fastestlaps.com.
The ZL1 1LE got faster too with an a10, about .7 in C&D's lightning lap compared to the manual.

Which all and all after talking about lap times, 1/4 mile times and running these cars on the street isnt close. Excited to see what the GT500 brings.

Like I said I love mustangs more, im just not delusional. I fricken love my viper but on the street I know a zl1 a10 will be a handful, nvm the new gt500 .

 

[millhouse]

Its hard to find same day comparison, but the regular ZL1 is faster than the R. Check fastestlaps.com.
The ZL1 1LE got faster too with an a10, about .7 in C&D's lightning lap compared to the manual.

It's not hard to find a comparison at all. It was done by motortrend with Randy Pobst behind the wheel of each. The old 350R was 0.39 seconds slower than the ZL1.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...l1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

I'll say this again...it's important so pay attention.

YOU CANNOT USE DIFFERENT DRIVERS AND DIFFERENT DAY COMPARISONS FOR TRACK LAP TIMES FOR ANY MEANINGFUL COMPARISON.

Go back and read the ZL1 GT350R article I posted. The ZL1 was 1.78 seconds slower with the same driver on different days.

Throw all of those fastlaps times out the window for comparisons. They are garbage.

Like I said I love mustangs more, im just not delusional. I fricken love my viper but on the street I know a zl1 a10 will be a handful, nvm the new gt500 .

Quite frankly, the delusions I see are people who truly believe the GT500 and GT500 CP will be slower in any facet (except top speed) than the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE respectively. Only fanboys would truly believe that Ford waited all of this time to release a car that is outperformed by a camaro that is not only much cheaper, but that has been out for several years now.

 

[1mic]

It's not hard to find a comparison at all. It was done by motortrend with Randy Pobst behind the wheel of each. The old 350R was 0.39 seconds slower than the ZL1.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/
I'll say this again...it's important so pay attention.
YOU CANNOT USE DIFFERENT DRIVERS AND DIFFERENT DAY COMPARISONS FOR TRACK LAP TIMES FOR ANY MEANINGFUL COMPARISON.
Go back and read the ZL1 GT350R article I posted. The ZL1 was 1.78 seconds slower with the same driver on different days.
Throw all of those fastlaps times out the window for comparisons. They are garbage.
Quite frankly, the delusions I see are people who truly believe the GT500 and GT500 CP will be slower in any facet (except top speed) than the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE respectively. Only fanboys would truly believe that Ford waited all of this time to release a car that is outperformed by a camaro that is not only much cheaper, but that has been out for several years now.

We can ABSOLUTELY use lap times on different days, we are keeping best of the best lap times. Just like 1/4 mile times, we keep the best of the best and the slow times can bring down the average. I agree that different time and day affects testing 100%. But it is a way to measure what these cars can do, one thing I dont care about are Ring times.

Why did the ZL1 go 1.78 seconds slower, was it because it heat soaked? The new GT500 may be prone to this, no matter what any ford engineer says.

I dont think anyone believes the GT500 is slow, DCT + 760hp + big ass brakes = hell yea it will haul ass.

 

[millhouse]

We can ABSOLUTELY use lap times on different days, we are keeping best of the best lap times. Just like 1/4 mile times, we keep the best of the best and the slow times can bring down the average. I agree that different time and day affects testing 100%. But it is a way to measure what these cars can do, one thing I dont care about are Ring times.

Why did the ZL1 go 1.78 seconds slower, was it because it heat soaked? The new GT500 may be prone to this, no matter what any ford engineer says.

I dont think anyone believes the GT500 is slow, DCT + 760hp + big ass brakes = hell yea it will haul ass.

Read the article! It wasn't heat soak! It was different ambient air temperatures and different traction. The first ZL1 test was run on days following a track event when the track had much more available grip.

Using lap times from different days for direct evaluations on cars is ignorant at best.

Again, a 1.78 second deviation is SIGNIFICANT.

Let's say the GT350R ran under the ZL1 original conditions. Instead of it being 0.39 seconds slower than the ZL1, it now registers as 1.39 seconds FASTER. 1.39 seconds is SIGNIFICANT.

When cars are this close in performance, you cannot determine what car is actually faster without a head to head, same driver same day comparison. There far more variables than the average 1/4 mile time here.

 

[mJolnir]

Those must be some sensitive kidneys. I drove one and while it was stiffer than anything else in my stable it was not annoying. If I wanted to DD it softer springs would have let the dampers work more effectively.

So you would daily the zl1 but not the 1le

That's reading a lot into those tea leaves...

Maybe its the tea leaves, maybe its the fact that cars that have a track versions are usually slower at the 1/4 mile times than the non track versions.

soft rear compression and soft front rebound is to allow an artificial degree of early-onset weight transfer in order to launch the car. For road we want a car that is balanced. The 2014 car had lousy suspension no matter it's usage. The GT500 and 350's you can approximate drag strip weight transfer with changes in the MR damper programming. Sure, it's not as much as deliberately screwing with mismatched spring rates but it's enough apparently to set respectable times.

Well, Ford sure is 'lax' about reaching for the brass ring of excellence... The GM tuning on their MR shocks is clearly better than that offered in the GT350. You might be right. Maybe Ford got embarrassed enough by GM to actually put in the effort to make their setup work.

That is probably programmed into the car as the shocks are electronic, its the non programmable mechanical part of the suspension what makes it not as good, you need higher rate springs to keep the car flat in the corners, if you go with soft springs and hard sway bars you end up with a car that wont be good at braking as it will pitch forward and give you a tail happy car on corner entry, the car would also be easily unsettled by any irregularity on the road. What makes a suspension good at the tack makes it not good at the drags.

A couple points on this.

The SS 1LE is NOT neck/neck with the pre 2020 350R. In the only same driver/same day testing the 350R proved to be 1.66 seconds around Laguna. That is significant. Also, the 2020 350R is going to be faster yet.

What wasn't significant was the 0.39 second advantage the ZL1 has over the GT350R. Much more neck and neck. And before anyone spouts off that the R is much more race oriented, let's not forget that these cars have comparable suspensions. While the ZL1 has wider tires, the R has a better compound. There is also an obvious HP and Tq disparity between the two vehicles.

I do agree though, the Zl1 1LE is much...much faster than the 350 (as it should be). It's far more of a "no compromise" car than anything Ford has produced in any mustang.

That makes a huge difference, its the reason the pp2 is faster than the ss 1le, and i bet that is the reason the gt350r is ''so close'' to the zl1.

 

[shogun32]

So you would daily the zl1 but not the 1le

I do daily the 'ZL1' minus the blower AKA SS/1LE. The ZL1/1LE has the Multimatic DSSV dampers. The issue isn't the damping curves, it's the spring choice. As I'm realizing to my chagrin (Steeda dual-rates), a bit too much spring can be problematic. If I had picked up the ZL1/1LE I would have swapped out the springs to something like the BMR SP041.

I don't disagree that an optimal drag setup differs significantly from a road-course setup.

 

[millhouse]

That makes a huge difference, its the reason the pp2 is faster than the ss 1le, and i bet that is the reason the gt350r is ''so close'' to the zl1.

I think you're grossly underestimating the supercar tires on the ZL1. By most accounts, they are close in grip and rate close in treadwear (PSC2 are 180, Supercars are 220).

The ZL1 1LE supercar r3 tires however are much gripper...so much so that motortrend was unable to do a burnout. Oh, and they carry a tread-wear rating of 100.

Also, by your account... if tires were the reason the GT350R is "so close", then that means the 2019 base GT350 is now "so close" as it is using the same tires as the R. And to that point, the base GT350 should now be able to perform nearly exactly the same as the R.

 

[newmoon]

A couple points on this.

The SS 1LE is NOT neck/neck with the pre 2020 350R. In the only same driver/same day testing the 350R proved to be 1.66 seconds around Laguna. That is significant. Also, the 2020 350R is going to be faster yet.

What wasn't significant was the 0.39 second advantage the ZL1 has over the GT350R. Much more neck and neck. And before anyone spouts off that the R is much more race oriented, let's not forget that these cars have comparable suspensions. While the ZL1 has wider tires, the R has a better compound. There is also an obvious HP and Tq disparity between the two vehicles.

I do agree though, the Zl1 1LE is much...much faster than the 350 (as it should be). It's far more of a "no compromise" car than anything Ford has produced in any mustang.

The only GT350 that the 1LE is better than is a 16- non track pack version. It might be close to a 16 TP, or 17-18 GT350s on certain tracks. Since the 2019 updates the 1LE isn't touching the GT350. And it has never run with an R period unless it was driver error. This is in regards to track duty. On the street there is no comparison the 1LE while very good, is simply a numb driving experience compared to a GT350.

 

[newmoon]

I think you're grossly underestimating the supercar tires on the ZL1. By most accounts, they are close in grip and rate close in treadwear (PSC2 are 180, Supercars are 220).

The ZL1 1LE supercar r3 tires however are much gripper...so much so that motortrend was unable to do a burnout. Oh, and they carry a tread-wear rating of 100.

Also, by your account... if tires were the reason the GT350R is "so close", then that means the 2019 base GT350 is now "so close" as it is using the same tires as the R. And to that point, the base GT350 should now be able to perform nearly exactly the same as the R.

Funny how they want to complain about treadwear ratings in that H2H but we are supposed to ignore the 125 hp/ 220 tq advantage that the ZL1 had.

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