Let's talk about the C8 vs the GT500

[HoosierDaddy]

It's not that @9secondko is sensitive, it's that your posts on here are all one dimensional anti-Ford. There's just so much bias in your posts it's difficult to ignore. Frankly, I don't believe you own any Ford vehicles. It just doesn't fit with your posts.

Yes, he does own a Mustang GT PP. Been canyon carving with him and other locals. He also is involved with setting up Mustang owner group attendance at the upcoming Ford vs. Ferrari film. He is definitely a car guy and what-he-owns guy which has included many different makes and models.

Pictures (that HE took) of my White 2016 and his Orange Fury and a Grabber Blue S197 on Yarnell Hill:

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[Hack]

Well I'll be dipped! Very surprised.

 

[DekiDoo]

Yes, he does own a Mustang GT PP. Been canyon carving with him and other locals. He also is involved with setting up Mustang owner group attendance at the upcoming Ford vs. Ferrari film. He is definitely a car guy and what-he-owns guy which has included many different makes and models.

Pictures of my White 2016 and his Orange Fury and a Grabber Blue S197 on Yarnell Hill:

[/QUOTE]

While we are at it, I dont know if you saw the thread about autocross. Sam and I are going again this weekend. You should come. It's a blast and I will even provide drinks, food and shade for you

 

[9secondko]

As an owner, one quickly discovers deficiencies and have every right to be negative about them and the morons at the helm who allowed them thru to production. Criticizing something you do NOT own (or at least driven a few times) is just vacuous pontificating. I'm an equal opportunity trasher of stupid (or praiser of good) be it the Mustang EB/GT or Camaro. My "negativity" of either side is reinforced the more I contrast the vehicles in question one day to the next.

Thanks. What you said is true. And I think most on this forum are honest about the Mustang capabilities and downfalls. In fact, if you look up my posts, it’s full of lament sbout either exterior design, performance, etc. but I also give praise where it’s due. But that does not describe this guy. Even when talking about Fords he doesn’t own, he’s always creating new ways to dismiss them. Doesn’t give praise where it’s due. That’s a troll. Sorry if he’s a buddy of yours. But that’s the way it is.

 

[DekiDoo]

Thanks. What you said is true. And I think most on this forum are honest about the Mustang capabilities and downfalls. In fact, if you look up my posts, it’s full of lament sbout either exterior design, performance, etc. but I also give praise where it’s due. But that does not describe this guy. Even when talking about Fords he doesn’t own, he’s always creating new ways to dismiss them. Doesn’t give praise where it’s due. That’s a troll. Sorry if he’s a buddy of yours. But that’s the way it is.

No, I don't give praise you want me to give. I drove a GT350 and loved it. I dont like the way the GT500 looks from the front and I think it's over priced. I also like the C7 better than the C8 but I still think the C8 is a good car. You and the other guy can keep screaming troll all you want, but you're literally a forum snowflake. You two are Blaqhole of M6G. If someone doesn't agree with you, they're a troll.

 

[9secondko]

No, I don't give praise you want me to give. I drove a GT350 and loved it. I dont like the way the GT500 looks from the front and I think it's over priced. I also like the C7 better than the C8 but I still think the C8 is a good car. You and the other guy can keep screaming troll all you want, but you're literally a forum snowflake. You two are Blaqhole of M6G. If someone doesn't agree with you, they're a troll.

I don’t “want” you to do anything. I don’t care what you do at all. But what you do describes who you are.

everyone here disagrees often. But they don’t take it to the trollish levels you do.

i think the 500 is the best looking mustang up to now other than the Saleen black label. But my personal style is more on the modern and angular side. I think the c8 is a tad fisher price looking. At least in red. But there are some angles where it looks genuinely awesome. And it’s a great performer as it should be. But the 500 performs BETTER. that’s not my opinion. So you can argue all day. It’s the kind of talk you generate that is the reason Ford didn’t hype its own numbers. They let the guys who talk about it see for themselves. They were blown away.

maybe there is a normal forum visitor in there somewhere. Idk. But it’s undeniable that your posts have been trolling. I don’t know the entire history of your posts, so you may be just going through a negative season in life. Everyone does. But just take a step back and try to see what you look like through someone else’s eyes for a second.

 

[jake_zx2]

The way I read that from autoblog is that they were “overclocked” to actually engage faster. You pull, it engages right away. No “squish.”

I disagree with this. What they have done doesn't give the illusion of a quick reaction shift. They have reduced the system delay, giving a quick reaction shift. It's not an illusion. The overall system response needs to be accounted for here. They basically took some "slack" out of the system.

This is correct. Instead of having the signal to shift the transmission happen when the paddle is fully depressed, the signal is delivered when the driver STARTS to depress the paddle. This is genius! I would expect that the time to depress the paddle is actually LONGER than the time it takes for the DCT itself to shift. So, Ford engineers actually sped up shift time a huge amount by reducing the human contribution to shift time. As a Ford guy, I hope they were able to get a patent on this, because I absolutely love this idea.

So, the actual shift time of the transmission is important, but this innovation is amazing. Basically you are getting something for nothing.

The point is that the transmission isn't ACTUALLY shifting faster than its competitors, per se. They're giving the illusion that it is by making the engagement point for a gear change before the end of the pedal's travel. It's similar to how some companies make the first 20% of throttle travel read more input than the last 80%... it's just an illusion to make that car seem like it has more balls than it actually does

Good on Ford for coming up with that idea, and it is incredibly innovative for what I have otherwise seen as a low-innovation vehicle, but it doesn't mean the transmission is ACTUALLY shifting faster than any other transmission, Ford is just doing a good job of tricking your brain into thinking it is

A hellcat costs less than 70k on average. Even a demon isn't 100k. I stand by my statement. A 600hp Z06 will sell, be successful and be damn fast.

A hellcat can be optioned to cost in excess of $100k fairly easily. Either way, we're talking about cars that are certainly not used for everyday driving and cars that are well above what the general population can afford. But just because someone spends $100k on a car doesn't mean they know ANYTHING about that car, and those are EXACTLY the kind of people who will buy because of a horsepower number or WON'T buy because it has less horsepower than a previous generation

Example; Friend of mine had to ask me if his McLaren 720S is all wheel drive. But he sure does love to flaunt that he has over 700hp and can top 200mph

 

[millhouse]

The point is that the transmission isn't ACTUALLY shifting faster than its competitors, per se. They're giving the illusion that it is by making the engagement point for a gear change before the end of the pedal's travel. It's similar to how some companies make the first 20% of throttle travel read more input than the last 80%... it's just an illusion to make that car seem like it has more balls than it actually does

Good on Ford for coming up with that idea, and it is incredibly innovative for what I have otherwise seen as a low-innovation vehicle, but it doesn't mean the transmission is ACTUALLY shifting faster than any other transmission, Ford is just doing a good job of tricking your brain into thinking it is

Once again, it's not an illusion. You have to take the entire system into account, not just the transmission. The response time from the user input to the mechanical output has been reduced, and in this case, that is all that matters. How it is accomplished is irrelevant. It is absolutely measurable, hence...not an illusion.

Using an accelerator pedal to prove your point is a poor analogy. What you are describing is modulation and nothing to do with the system response.

 

[jake_zx2]

Once again, it's not an illusion. You have to take the entire system into account, not just the transmission. The response time from the user input to the mechanical output has been reduced, and in this case, that is all that matters. How it is accomplished is irrelevant. It is absolutely measurable, hence...not an illusion.

Using an accelerator pedal to prove your point is a poor analogy. What you are describing is modulation and nothing to do with the system response.

You are wrong. User input has nothing to do with ACTUAL SHIFT SPEED, and that's what we're discussing here. Whether the paddle applies the shift at the beginning or the end of the throw, the shift speed will remain the same. However, because the shift is being completed BEFORE you can fully depress the paddle, it gives the ILLUSION that the car is shifting faster than it is. The throttle pedal analogy is a perfect comparison... it's performing beyond the intended input to give the illusion of greater performance. That's all it is

 

[millhouse]

You are wrong. User input has nothing to do with ACTUAL SHIFT SPEED, and that's what we're discussing here. Whether the paddle applies the shift at the beginning or the end of the throw, the shift speed will remain the same. However, because the shift is being completed BEFORE you can fully depress the paddle, it gives the ILLUSION that the car is shifting faster than it is. The throttle pedal analogy is a perfect comparison... it's performing beyond the intended input to give the illusion of greater performance. That's all it is

One more time now. An allusion cannot be measured. The item we at discussing CAN.

The transmission is not in a vacuum, therefore the entire system needs to be accounted for. The shifters and their wiring are part of the transmission system. The user cares about how fast the transmission shifts after they actuate the lever. This isn’t modulation, this is the reduction/elimination of system response time.

 

[Hack]

You are wrong. User input has nothing to do with ACTUAL SHIFT SPEED, and that's what we're discussing here. Whether the paddle applies the shift at the beginning or the end of the throw, the shift speed will remain the same. However, because the shift is being completed BEFORE you can fully depress the paddle, it gives the ILLUSION that the car is shifting faster than it is. The throttle pedal analogy is a perfect comparison... it's performing beyond the intended input to give the illusion of greater performance. That's all it is

I think of shift speed as the time between when the driver decides to make a shift and when the shift happens. You can have a different definition though.

 

[millhouse]

I think of shift speed as the time between when the driver decides to make a shift and when the shift happens. You can have a different definition though.

What you are describing is what the user cares about...and again, is measurable. This is similar to installing a short throw snifter on a manual transmission. The shifter (much like the paddles on the DCT) is part of the transmission system.

Quite frankly, he could have argued that the paddles aren't part of the system and I would have been OK with that. It's the "illusion" part that he is incorrect about. Fact of the matter is, Ford's system takes less time to react to shifting from user inputs...there is no collusion...er, illusion here.

 

[9secondko]

I think of shift speed as the time between when the driver decides to make a shift and when the shift happens. You can have a different definition though.

I agree with this.
It’s the time between a user entering input to the system completing the execution of that command.

it’s faster. Plain and simple. i believe that is the standard way of defining it.

 

[jake_zx2]

I think of shift speed as the time between when the driver decides to make a shift and when the shift happens. You can have a different definition though.

Shift speed is simply how long the car takes to shift. It has nothing to do with user input, it is simply how long the mechanical process takes

If my fingers for some reason happen to move slower than yours and thus can't pull the paddle as quickly as you, would you say the shift speed in my CAR is reduced? No, you'd say I'm a slow shifter

What you are describing is what the user cares about...and again, is measurable. This is similar to installing a short throw snifter on a manual transmission. The shifter (much like the paddles on the DCT) is part of the transmission system.

Quite frankly, he could have argued that the paddles aren't part of the system and I would have been OK with that. It's the "illusion" part that he is incorrect about. Fact of the matter is, Ford's system takes less time to react to shifting from user inputs...there is no collusion...er, illusion here.

Again, when the paddle engages has nothing to do with how long the transmission ACTUALLY takes to disengage first and engage second. That speed remains the same, regardless of when the paddle engages. As for the short throw shifter bit, a short throw doesn't allow the TRANSMISSION to shift any faster, it allows the USER to shift faster. I know there are some people who can shift faster with a stock shifter than me with a short throw, but I'm not going to go and say that their CAR is faster shifting

It is purely an illusion. User input isn't part of the system, it's a variable and is removed from this situation. regardless of who's driving, the shift speed will remain the same

 

[Hack]

Shift speed is simply how long the car takes to shift. It has nothing to do with user input, it is simply how long the mechanical process takes

If my fingers for some reason happen to move slower than yours and thus can't pull the paddle as quickly as you, would you say the shift speed in my CAR is reduced? No, you'd say I'm a slow shifter



Again, when the paddle engages has nothing to do with how long the transmission ACTUALLY takes to disengage first and engage second. That speed remains the same, regardless of when the paddle engages. As for the short throw shifter bit, a short throw doesn't allow the TRANSMISSION to shift any faster, it allows the USER to shift faster. I know there are some people who can shift faster with a stock shifter than me with a short throw, but I'm not going to go and say that their CAR is faster shifting

It is purely an illusion. User input isn't part of the system, it's a variable and is removed from this situation. regardless of who's driving, the shift speed will remain the same

I'm fine with your definition of shift time not including the time it takes for the person to pull the paddle. However, IMO the definition you are using in this case seems somewhat arbitrary. Would you say that the DCT shifts faster than a manual transmission does? Does the shift time for a manual transmission include the time for a person to move the shift lever? Or would you say manual transmission shift time is infinite because the lever doesn't move by itself and you only want to include the things that take place automatically inside the transmission? Or is manual transmission shift time zero because there are no electronics in the mix (we are only timing the actions performed by electronics)?

If it were PURELY an illusion, it wouldn't impact lap times. If the car had electronics inside it that could read your mind and eliminate the need for you to pull on a paddle, my contention is that change would improve shift times even more (assuming the driver has the ability to optimize shift timing). I realize you would say it doesn't, but it would be a performance enhancer. Why even measure or consider how long a shift takes unless you are using the measurement to correlate with the car's performance?

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