Sponsored

The beginning of the end for the Mustang?

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Threads
11
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
4,720
Location
On a corner barstool not too far from I-95
First Name
Norm
Vehicle(s)
'08 GT #85, '19 WRX
True. That's why I can multiply any two 9 digit numbers faster than any computer or calculator. Wait.... :wink:
Ummm, OK. The computer will get to its answers a lot quicker. But - in the more general sense - computer outputs can only be as good as the inputs and assumptions that the computer has been given to work with.


Just a matter of time until they have to update the John Henry legend substituting self driving cars for a steam engine.
Interesting analogy. Seems that the only 'winners' are the people in charge (and those who do not respect their own limitations). Everybody else is rendered irrelevant no matter how good they might be.


Norm
Sponsored

 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Threads
11
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
4,720
Location
On a corner barstool not too far from I-95
First Name
Norm
Vehicle(s)
'08 GT #85, '19 WRX
Think about the thousands of flights everyday that go off without a hitch. Millions of miles with no issues or concerns. And then you have the 737 Max. Nothing involving humans is perfect. But 99.9999999999999% is still pretty good.
Makes me wonder what the average human driver's record is for not making serious errors, let's say on a distance basis as well. Probably not everyone, but I bet it could run at least as high as 99.9999% for some of us.


Norm
 
OP
OP
analogman

analogman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Threads
29
Messages
237
Reaction score
249
Location
Massachusetts
Vehicle(s)
2015 Mustang GT PP
Iā€™m certainly no expert in the automobile industry, but I think Jim Hackett will go down in history as the worst CEO Ford has ever had. I think there will be business school case studies written about him and his tenure, and not for complimentary reasons but as examples of ā€˜donā€™t let this happen to youā€™.

In what universe is it a sound business strategy to abandon a significant portion of your revenues and unit sales and gift it to the competition? With the insane hope that car buyers will simply switch to SUVs/CUVā€™s/whatever the acronym of the day is for trucks and trucklets? I can only imagine the fruit baskets the people at Hyundai must have sent to Ford for that one. I think Ford walking away from the US car business will go down in history as one of he most bone-headed moves ever by a major corporation.

The Mach-E ā€˜electric Mustangā€™ is another example of Hackettā€™s wishful thinking. Electric vehicles account for only about 2% of the market today. Yes, their sales will probably increase in the future, but only after a few pesky little details are solved, such as, range, charge time, safety (exploding Tesla batteries anyone?), making them cost competitive without having to rely on taxpayer incentives, and the biggest one, having an electric power grid that isnā€™t mostly generated by fossil fuels.

Right now about 2/3 of electricity in the US is generated by fossil fuels, so those ā€˜pollution freeā€™ electric cars are really mostly powered by natural gas or coal. Until this country has an energy grid primarily based on renewable resources (solar, wind, tidal, etc.), electric cars will not truly make sense (unless youā€™re one of the few people who generates all your own electricity from rooftop photovoltaic panels).

It all just strikes me as signs of a leader, and a company, that donā€™t believe in or even understand their own products. Having trouble making money on cars? How about building better products? Yes, sedan sales are shrinking, but we donā€™t see the Japanese and Korean companies walking away from the segment ā€“ somehow theyā€™ve figured out how to make money by selling cars.

Iā€™m not surprised to see such misguided moves by Hackett. After all, his experiences are in selling metal office furniture. I think the car business is a little harder and more complicated than making cheap filing cabinets. But then, heā€™s just doing what the Ford family orders him to do ā€“ get the stock price up in the short term, whatever it takes.

I think the Ford family is positioning the company to sell it to VW (who need a solution to their reputation/credibility problem in the US because of dieselgate) or maybe BMW (who I suspect would love to add trucks to their product line). All of Fordā€™s recent moves smack of people desperate to pump up the stock price in the short term. It will be a very sad day to see the end of such a storied, legendary name as Ford.

First Chrysler ceased being a US company, with Ford to soon follow. That will leave GM as the only major ā€˜Americanā€™ based car manufacturer, which will be the saddest commentary of all on what has happened with manufacturing in America. This country once led the world in cars and manufacturing in general, but that time is quickly passing. I guess itā€™s Chinaā€™s turn next.
 

Balr14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Threads
30
Messages
2,506
Reaction score
2,300
Location
SE Wisconsin
First Name
John
Vehicle(s)
BMW Z4 M40i
That's a possibility. But remember, computers are programmed by the same humans who would be driving alongside self driving cars. The programs and modules of self driving cars are only as good as the human who wrote it.
A program will have errors and oversights. But, they will be corrected and once corrected they will never happen again. You can't say the same for humans. They forget, computers don't. I have code that has been running for years that has never failed. But, I made a mistake driving yesterday. I took my eyes off the road. I've done it before, we all have. It was only for 3 seconds. I could have rear-ended someone making an unexpected turn in front of me. If it was 5 seconds instead of 3, I would have. I should have known better. I was distracted and forgot. Computers don't get distracted or forget.
 

Hack

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Threads
83
Messages
12,283
Reaction score
7,443
Location
Minneapolis
Vehicle(s)
Mustang, Camaro
It remains to be seen whether electrics will take over or not. There are a lot of people who seem to buy big vehicles right now. Pickups sell a ton and they are the worst if people really are concerned about emissions and fuel economy. My explanation for this is that most people don't believe the environmental crap we get barraged with on a daily basis. Either that or they don't care. The result is the same no matter which of those explanations is true. It doesn't really matter what car companies build if those vehicles don't sell.

If you look at what is selling now, it seems to me that the Teslas are the only electric cars that people want. My thought is that Teslas are expensive and seem cool. So go-getter types who want something unique are buying them. I think of them as BMW or Mercedes types of people. Cheaper electric cars like the Leaf sell, but they aren't very common.

I think the main market for electric cars are people who believe that there is global warming, would never ever buy a pickup because "that would be bad" and are not interested in performance. These people are mostly buying compact SUVs and smaller hybrids right now, I think. The other thing I would infer about these people is that they tend to be risk averse. I think going to an entirely new method of doing things and adding plug-in equipment to their house isn't what they would prefer.

I haven't seen a Tesla roadster yet. Virtually none are selling. And Tesla sales are falling. I think the reality of Tesla is not as good as what people hype them up to be in their minds. And people who want sporty cars tend to not want a Tesla.

Frankly I don't see the performance car segment being an area where electrics are going to do well. The Mach E definitely seems like a gamble on Ford's part to me, being that it is a little large and supposed to be sporty. Plus it's a Ford. As a top of the line Lincoln it might do better, I think.
 
Last edited:

Sponsored

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Threads
11
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
4,720
Location
On a corner barstool not too far from I-95
First Name
Norm
Vehicle(s)
'08 GT #85, '19 WRX
Iā€™m certainly no expert in the automobile industry, but I think Jim Hackett will go down in history as the worst CEO Ford has ever had. I think there will be business school case studies written about him and his tenure, and not for complimentary reasons but as examples of ā€˜donā€™t let this happen to youā€™.

In what universe is it a sound business strategy to abandon a significant portion of your revenues and unit sales and gift it to the competition? With the insane hope that car buyers will simply switch to SUVs/CUVā€™s/whatever the acronym of the day is for trucks and trucklets? I can only imagine the fruit baskets the people at Hyundai must have sent to Ford for that one. I think Ford walking away from the US car business will go down in history as one of he most bone-headed moves ever by a major corporation.

The Mach-E ā€˜electric Mustangā€™ is another example of Hackettā€™s wishful thinking. Electric vehicles account for only about 2% of the market today. Yes, their sales will probably increase in the future, but only after a few pesky little details are solved, such as, range, charge time, safety (exploding Tesla batteries anyone?), making them cost competitive without having to rely on taxpayer incentives, and the biggest one, having an electric power grid that isnā€™t mostly generated by fossil fuels.
I'm not at all convinced that the other Jim (Farley) is any better.


Right now about 2/3 of electricity in the US is generated by fossil fuels, so those ā€˜pollution freeā€™ electric cars are really mostly powered by natural gas or coal. Until this country has an energy grid primarily based on renewable resources (solar, wind, tidal, etc.), electric cars will not truly make sense (unless youā€™re one of the few people who generates all your own electricity from rooftop photovoltaic panels).
Sooner or later it may start occurring to people to question whether the use of wind and tides as energy sources is free of all adverse environmental consequences. The real trick would be if there's a way to harness global warming/climate change.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Threads
11
Messages
9,011
Reaction score
4,720
Location
On a corner barstool not too far from I-95
First Name
Norm
Vehicle(s)
'08 GT #85, '19 WRX
A program will have errors and oversights. But, they will be corrected and once corrected they will never happen again. You can't say the same for humans. They forget, computers don't. I have code that has been running for years that has never failed. But, I made a mistake driving yesterday. I took my eyes off the road. I've done it before, we all have. It was only for 3 seconds. I could have rear-ended someone making an unexpected turn in front of me. If it was 5 seconds instead of 3, I would have. I should have known better. I was distracted and forgot. Computers don't get distracted or forget.
I'm not 100.00% convinced of that last part . . . computer "memory" over time is only as good as the storage media that retains such information. I'm far from convinced that there aren't any "blind spots" hiding somewhere inside the millions of lines of code.

Perhaps there was some acquired wisdom going on in the background that led you to limit your eyes-away time to 3 seconds.


Norm
 
Last edited:

Ebm

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Threads
66
Messages
3,051
Reaction score
1,338
Location
North Carolina
First Name
Guy
Vehicle(s)
'14 GT
A program will have errors and oversights. But, they will be corrected and once corrected they will never happen again. You can't say the same for humans. They forget, computers don't. I have code that has been running for years that has never failed. But, I made a mistake driving yesterday. I took my eyes off the road. I've done it before, we all have. It was only for 3 seconds. I could have rear-ended someone making an unexpected turn in front of me. If it was 5 seconds instead of 3, I would have. I should have known better. I was distracted and forgot. Computers don't get distracted or forget.
You sure about that? Windows 10 has been a dumpster fire lately. Microsoft is taking 2 steps back and 1 step forward. They fix an issue with Windows 10 and 2 other issues crop up. A software update to a self driving car is prone to the same thing. I would consider a death trap(3,000 pound car) a little more of a risk than a computer though lol.

I bet you a million bucks your code is nowhere near as complex as an operating system or software that would run a self driving car. The other difference is the fact that operating systems and software for self driving cars are always changing. The dynamics of both of those things are what drives sales. The new features, efficiency, etc.

It looks like we both work with computers.
 

Balr14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Threads
30
Messages
2,506
Reaction score
2,300
Location
SE Wisconsin
First Name
John
Vehicle(s)
BMW Z4 M40i
You sure about that? Windows 10 has been a dumpster fire lately. Microsoft is taking 2 steps back and 1 step forward. They fix an issue with Windows 10 and 2 other issues crop up. A software update to a self driving car is prone to the same thing. I would consider a death trap(3,000 pound car) a little more of a risk than a computer though lol.

I bet you a million bucks your code is nowhere near as complex as an operating system or software that would run a self driving car. The other difference is the fact that operating systems and software for self driving cars are always changing. The dynamics of both of those things are what drives sales. The new features, efficiency, etc.

It looks like we both work with computers.
I would take that bet.
 

Sponsored

Coloradoeco

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
85
Reaction score
63
Location
Colorado
Vehicle(s)
16 eco pp
This sort of reminds me in 03 when Porsche came out with the Cayenne, but that seemed to work out for them and did not really take away from the 911. Im optimistic whatever Ford releases wont take away from the original and maybe let them do more with it if this becomes a hit.
 

Balr14

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Threads
30
Messages
2,506
Reaction score
2,300
Location
SE Wisconsin
First Name
John
Vehicle(s)
BMW Z4 M40i
Can I borrow some money? :giggle:
55 years of experience on IBM mainframe MVS and zOS operating systems, 20 years of game development in C, C++ and scripting, dating to Quake 2 and one of the first to write software that does heart scans using a Fresnel zone plate (forerunner to modern medical scanning technology). Controlling a car is fairly simple as it only has a very limited number of interfaces... unless they use Windows or some derivative as the operating system. The nature of programming has changed, too. It's a lot dumber now, or I should say more encapsulated. That won't help.
 

Coloradoeco

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Threads
0
Messages
85
Reaction score
63
Location
Colorado
Vehicle(s)
16 eco pp
Dude Quake II was awesome
55 years of experience on IBM mainframe MVS and zOS operating systems, 20 years of game development in C, C++ and scripting, dating to Quake 2 and one of the first to write software that does heart scans using a Fresnel zone plate (forerunner to modern medical scanning technology). Controlling a car is fairly simple as it only has a very limited number of interfaces... unless they use Windows or some derivative as the operating system. The nature of programming has changed, too. It's a lot dumber now, or I should say more encapsulated. That won't help.
Sponsored

 
  • Like
Reactions: Ebm
 




Top