GT500 vs It's competitors: Is it really overprice ?

[martinjlm]

You must realize that the Mustang isn’t a competitor to the Corvette.

One is a Pony Car and the other a Sports Car.
Even the “base” C8 is a new, mid engine car that represents the pinnacle of GM engineering.

The 500 is the top Mustang. a four-seat car that has some compromise built into it by design, like the Camaro. It competes with the Zl1 and Hellcat.

The Corvette is the top everything of GM. It competes with Fords GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc. and it does so very well and even at a bargain price.

The fact that a trim level of Mustang is beating a hot new Corvette on the track and in the 1320 is saying something big.

And this isn’t the top dog Mustang GT500. It’s not even the carbon fiber track pack.

Plus, we are now seeing the GM pricing bait and switch we talked about come to fruition.

Amazing that a Mustang that starts as a 4 banger also has a supercharged v8 big brother that performs better than The newest Corvette on offer.

I’m sure there will be a supercharged or turbocharged c8 that comes out and costs 100k+ that really shines. It’s very light, has the engine in the back, and uses a pretty sweet DCT. it’s going to be great.

But the GT500 occupying the same territory is amazing.

Mustangs compete with Camaro. No argument there. But history tells us that the Shelby Mustangs were first introduced as track competitors to the Corvette because Ford had nothing else to compete with Corvette in the showroom or on the track.

Corvette considers Porsche, Ferrari, and McLaren to be its top tier competitor set. It considers Nissan GT-R, Mercedes AMG GT, Shelby Mustangs, and Jaguar F-Types as second tier competitors. Got that info straight from the former head of GM’s Competitor Intelligence (some of you will get that ). I am also often in contact with people at Ford’s Competitor Intelligence team. I’ll just leave it at that.

It is NOT unusual for a Shelby Mustang to outperform base model Corvettes. In fact, in the 2000s it’s fairly commonplace.

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[1stMustang-GT500]

When im behind the wheel of my GT500 every car lined up next to me is my competition. I dont care what some executive nerd says from behind his desk of eho he thinks the competition is or who the car was designed to compete with.

Racing is like fighting and the one in control usually has more input on the outcome compared to thw equipment being used.

Also why every Integra will pull up next to us and rev his engine.

 

[5.Oh Crush]

price AS TESTED was $88k... thats more than a GT500 base+ most options.. i mean, i never said the C8 and GT500 should be compared, but if we are comparing, as Ive stated since both debuts, it will take the Z06/ZR1 to do any harm to the 500, at which point, your in for easyily over 100k, and then ill say, whats it cost to get a 4 seater C8, just to balance the scales

Why is this even an argument. The Vette has two seats, so agree. Where everyone is missing the boat is the GT500 is 20K ADM and will remain as the Z06 (both SCed) will get some 10-15k discounts in second year. The best value for HP is the Z06 at end of day. GT500 is rare, but at a premium.

 

[millhouse]

Mustangs compete with Camaro. No argument there. But history tells us that the Shelby Mustangs were first introduced as track competitors to the Corvette because Ford had nothing else to compete with Corvette in the showroom or on the track.

Corvette considers Porsche, Ferrari, and McLaren to be its top tier competitor set. It considers Nissan GT-R, Mercedes AMG GT, Shelby Mustangs, and Jaguar F-Types as second tier competitors. Got that info straight from the former head of GM’s Competitor Intelligence (some of you will get that

). I am also often in contact with people at Ford’s Competitor Intelligence team. I’ll just leave it at that.

It is NOT unusual for a Shelby Mustang to outperform base model Corvettes. In fact, in the 2000s it’s fairly commonplace.

Corvette may consider Ferrari and McLaren a competitor, but I would venture to say most Ferrari and McLaren potential buyers are not cross shopping the Corvette. There are many more reasons to purchase a vehicle other than performance.

With that said, because of the price point and markups, the GT500 will absolutely be cross shopped against the corvette….as price is the single biggest factor to most who are purchasing a vehicle. Every time I have heard a Ford spokesman talk about benchmarking, they never mention the Camaro. It’s always Corvette, Porsche etc. Ford does seem to consider the GT500 out of the Camaros league, regardless of performance. It for sure is their corvette.

I’m curious to see how magazines compare these. Will they skip the GT500 to ZL1 comparo and go straight to the GT500 C8? I’m thinking they will, as the ZL1 has remained largely unchanged, and everyone seems to have conceded that it’s likely to get demolished in both a straight line and (likely) around the track.

 

[shogun32]

You must realize that the Mustang isn’t a competitor to the Corvette.
One is a Pony Car and the other a Sports Car.

That "truism" died in 2015 when Ford finally decided to build a half-decent sports car out of the GT350. Sure the regular Mustangs compete with Camaro except that the 1LE editions have all the good parts from the Corvette (MR, coolers, eLSD) and are actually 20 grand cheaper than their supposed competition (GT350). Ok, so the SS+1LE is more properly competing against a GT+PP2 (still lacking coolers) and still comes in at a cheaper price point.

The GT350 vs Corvette is a valid comparison considering their respective prices, respective engine technologies and outputs. The C8+Z51+MR vs GT350 is as equal a comparo as you can come up with.

 

[V00D00]

Totally wrong.
Base car at $59,995
Z51 package $5,000
That’s really all you need to get the acceleration times. You can add $1,895 for Magnaride if you want, but that’s not needed to get the 0-60 or 1/4 mile times.

The extra $$$ on the Motor Trend and Car& Driver cars were to option up from 1LT trim to 3LT trim (better leather, alcantera, premium audio, seat upgrades). None of which translates into better times. More mass? probably. Better times? No. I’ve seen people erroneously add $1,095 for Performance Exhaust. But the performance exhaust is included in the Z51 package. The $1,095 is only if you want the exhaust, but not the Z51 package.

The C8 is simply the same. The only options that add to the performance of the base car are the Performance Exhaust ($1,095), the Z51 package (which includes the Performance Exhaust, $5,000), and Magna-Ride ($1,895) for track work

I don’t think I’m the one changing goal posts. You are the one that believed it took an $88k version of the C8 to achieve the numbers you quoted. You are clearly wrong. The number is closer to $67k. The other $21k is for interior trim, Performance Data Recorder (not available on Shelby anything), a 2-level seat upgrade, and a bunch of other pieces that do nothing for the performance of the car. I did point out that the $67k number is actually closer to the price tag on the GT350 that I drove and that in that $67k it would also have more content than the GT350 (HUD, heated and ventilated power seats, additional coolers). Mentioning the GT350 was more a matter of convenience, since I just recently had it in my hands. I could have just as well compared it to the base GT500, since that is the subject of this thread.

Neither of us truly knows the answer to that, but if GM continues with their current path of pricing the C8 versions at $5,000 above the C7 version while providing better performance than the C7 version, then you are looking at C8 Z06 in the $80k range. More than the GT500 base, less than the GT500 CFTP

Thats all opinion, since you have 0 basis to judge any lesser variation from. thats the car GM sent them, thats what it took to get those times. Any other conclusion is not justifiable.
if you want to compare street legal cars, then all the options they got are required, as they are standard on the base, or available for LESS than the almighty C8. so it keeps things in perspective

You wont be able to fins a z06 version with base anything. Thats not how GM has ever played the game, nor how any real buyers would want it. hence the disparity in people thinking a base 500, is somehow limited in comfort or style, because other makers, ford included, but mostly GM, you have to pay if you want the 2nd key, pay if you want power mirrors ect. If you want the cars compared, compare them equally, in all matters.. which they shouldnt be compared, since i will never buy a corvette, until i dont have a 3rd person to lug around, like most of the people buying cars in that price range


Perfect example, my 500 non cftp vs as tested C8. I paid less, i get more. so in V00D00's comparison test, we are 1-0 going to ford, and thats just on paper, let alone actual driving reviews.

Why is this even an argument. The Vette has two seats, so agree. Where everyone is missing the boat is the GT500 is 20K ADM and will remain as the Z06 (both SCed) will get some 10-15k discounts in second year. The best value for HP is the Z06 at end of day. GT500 is rare, but at a premium.

Who is paying ADM? this is why your argument is flawed. 20k over? i didnt it, there is a guy a few posts back that had 6 dealers at 5k, with 2 at msrp. so stop using ADM in an attempt to justify it, when its clear the majority arent paying them.

Best value for dollar is not a Z06, if you want a new car. Again, compare different cars if you want, but it would wrong to do so and not compare them with every aspect included

 

[okfoz]

How do you even compare a 760 hp car to a 500 hp car? It is like comparing a 230 hp 1989 Camaro with a 365 hp 1987 Testarossa. They are in completely different classes of automobile. If you put 700 or 760 ponies in a C8, then you would have something to compare it to... The C8 Corvette just does not have the power to compete for acceleration... I hear a lot of rumors in Michigan, I have seen 5 or 6 C8s on the road, and I have seen several GT500s driving around. I have heard that when GM was developing the C8, they were testing engines with excess of 1200 HP to make sure the chassis would hold up to the power.. Many times engineers do tests of 1.5x the actual expected loads for safety reasons, I would not be surprised if by the end of the C8 there will be an 800hp engine option...

 

[9secondko]

When im behind the wheel of my GT500 every car lined up next to me is my competition. I dont care what some executive nerd says from behind his desk of eho he thinks the competition is or who the car was designed to compete with.

Racing is like fighting and the one in control usually has more input on the outcome compared to thw equipment being used.

Also why every Integra will pull up next to us and rev his engine.

that same integra not being competitive is why they aren’t competitors. Different class of car. The driver on the other hand...

 

[kilobravo]

..when its clear the majority arent paying them.

V: My gut feeling is the opposite but I have no data to support the guess other than what I've read here and the fact that I'll be paying $5k.

The store says their standard Shelby ADM is $10k but because I set up the deal so long ago and got a written agreement on $5k, they chose to honor the deal.

 

[9secondko]

How do you even compare a 760 hp car to a 500 hp car? It is like comparing a 230 hp 1989 Camaro with a 365 hp 1987 Testarossa. They are in completely different classes of automobile. If you put 700 or 760 ponies in a C8, then you would have something to compare it to... The C8 Corvette just does not have the power to compete for acceleration... I hear a lot of rumors in Michigan, I have seen 5 or 6 C8s on the road, and I have seen several GT500s driving around. I have heard that when GM was developing the C8, they were testing engines with excess of 1200 HP to make sure the chassis would hold up to the power.. Many times engineers do tests of 1.5x the actual expected loads for safety reasons, I would not be surprised if by the end of the C8 there will be an 800hp engine option...

its the overall platform.

How do you compare a four seater car to a two seater car?

doesn’t seem to make sense. But people are doing it. Especially if it seems to help whichever side of bias they cling to.

heck, a four seat platform Needs an engine edge to compete against the weight, aero, and weight distribution edge of a mid engine, 2 seat v8 platform.

Soon enough the c8 will have forced induction as well and possibly helped out by an additional electric motor. So we will then be arguing about single engine vs hybrid multi engine plus forced induction “super electro engines or something. Fun times.

 

[shogun32]

I have heard that when GM was developing the C8, they were testing engines with excess of 1200 HP to make sure the chassis would hold up to the power.. Many times engineers do tests of 1.5x the actual expected loads for safety reasons

30-50% margin is *minimum* in many engineering disciplines. The issue with chassis and drive-line survival is not HP, it's torque. 625lb/ft (GT500 max claimed) spun to 6500 yields 770HP, vs 700 spun to 9000 is 1200HP. The difference in twist is just 12%. Or if you prefer, 750 spun to 8500RPM is a 20% change.

 

[9secondko]

That "truism" died in 2015 when Ford finally decided to build a half-decent sports car out of the GT350. Sure the regular Mustangs compete with Camaro except that the 1LE editions have all the good parts from the Corvette (MR, coolers, eLSD) and are actually 20 grand cheaper than their supposed competition (GT350). Ok, so the SS+1LE is more properly competing against a GT+PP2 (still lacking coolers) and still comes in at a cheaper price point.

The GT350 vs Corvette is a valid comparison considering their respective prices, respective engine technologies and outputs. The C8+Z51+MR vs GT350 is as equal a comparo as you can come up with.

Incorrect. It’s because of the platforms.
Ford actually putting effort in doesn’t change its category. It simply makes it best in class of its class - that just so happens to be highly competitive cars that are classed above it.

 

[martinjlm]

Thats all opinion, since you have 0 basis to judge any lesser variation from. thats the car GM sent them, thats what it took to get those times. Any other conclusion is not justifiable.

Corvette order guide CLEARLY indicates the pricing for the base car, the Z51 package, and the MR package. The Z51 can CLEARLY be ordered in 1LT trim, 2LT trim, and 3LT trim. The fact that they chose to give MT, C&D, and R&T 3LT versions is simply due to the fact that they wanted them to also weigh in on the quality of the top level interiors and all the bells and whistles of a loaded 3LT version. It does not disprove the fact that a 1LT with Z51 delivers the performance quoted.

if you want to compare street legal cars, then all the options they got are required, as they are standard on the base, or available for LESS than the almighty C8. so it keeps things in perspective

. You cannot be serious. Or maybe I am just misunderstanding you. All the stuff on the cars as tested is NOT included in the base. And most of it have ZERO impact on the car’s performance. Only Z51 and MagnaRide impact performance. PDR and HUD help communicate to the driver. The rest is comfort and convenience stuff. The kinda stuff Ford leaves off of Shelby models to reduce cost and mass.

You wont be able to fins a z06 version with base anything. Thats not how GM has ever played the game, nor how any real buyers would want it. hence the disparity in people thinking a base 500, is somehow limited in comfort or style, because other makers, ford included, but mostly GM, you have to pay if you want the 2nd key, pay if you want power mirrors ect.

Ford and GM do have different ways of approaching this. What GM does is set up the base model as a 1LT. Some dealers stock them, some don’t. 2LT adds some packaged options. 3LT adds even more options. Then there are free flow options like Carbon Fibre roof panels and different color engine covers. If I were to order a C8, I would have to order at least a 2LT because 1LT doesn’t have HUD. I like HUD. Doesn’t mean I couldn’t find a 1LT on a lot, though. Conversely, referencing a debate I have constantly with a Mustang driver on C6G, you would be hard pressed to find a Mustang GT with PP1 and A10 or a PP2 on a dealer’s lot. Most Mustang GTs on dealer lots are either A10 with no PP or PP1 6MT. If you want PP1 + A10, or a PP2 you have to order it. And I live less than 10 miles from Ford HQ and less than 25 miles from the Mustang plant. You’d think if there was anywhere where dealers would stock the top performing GT model. GM plays it the other way. Dealers usually stock the higher content models, but ANYBODY can order a bone stock model. That’s what I did with my first Vette in 1987.

If you want the cars compared, compare them equally, in all matters.. which they shouldnt be compared, since i will never buy a corvette, until i dont have a 3rd person to lug around, like most of the people buying cars in that price range.

Literally the first time I’ve heard back seat availability as a buy or no buy on a track car. Different buyers, different needs. I have a back seat. Been there since I got the car 2-1/2 years ago. Having trouble recalling having anyone back there more than 5 times in the entire time I’ve owned it.

Perfect example, my 500 non cftp vs as tested C8. I paid less, i get more. so in V00D00's comparison test, we are 1-0 going to ford, and thats just on paper, let alone actual driving reviews.

Unless you compare to any of the people that have already ordered a 2020 Stingray 1LT Z51 for less than $70k. I know several such people and their orders are as real as yours. The cars they’ve ordered have also already been 3rd party tested at faster 0-60 than the car that you’re paying more for. And your car is faster 1/4 mile than the cars that they’ve paid for. I genuinely hope all of you are very happy with your cars when you receive them, because whether they have a snake badge or a twin flag badge, they’re gonna be great cars. Enjoy them and quit trying to convince people that one or the other sucks. They don’t. They’re different and have different value propositions.

 

[likeaboss]

I've sat in the new GT500 and C8 Corvette in all three interior trim levels. Even in 1LT trim the C8 Corvette has better interior quality than the GT500 and it should given the GT500's roots are a $20kish Ecoboost model.

People really need to stop saying the Shelby Mustangs and Corvettes don't compete against each other for the automotive enthusiasts dollar because they do. I'm living proof as a diehard Shelby owner currently driving a Vette.

 

[millhouse]

I've sat in the new GT500 and C8 Corvette in all three interior trim levels. Even in 1LT trim the C8 Corvette has better interior quality than the GT500 and it should given the GT500's roots are a $20kish Ecoboost model.

People really need to stop saying the Shelby Mustangs and Corvettes don't compete against each other for the automotive enthusiasts dollar because they do. I'm living proof as a diehard Shelby owner currently driving a Vette.

Dollar for dollar, you're correct. Seat for Seat (where it matters), they will not. Different strokes for different folks. We seem to package our preconceived notions about marketing based on our biased opinions on where we think these cars should fall (I was one of them). Some people would never dream of owning a GT500 because it’s made by Ford. I’ve never understood blind brand loyalty.

With that said, I’d venture to say most purchasing the GT500 will be doing so already having a different daily driver…so back seats won’t be high priority (for most).

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