GT500 vs It's competitors: Is it really overprice ?

[V00D00]

Yes in the BMW dct, just like the M2 (3000-3500).

You’re right, that could be a potential change. I think I said earlier it wouldn’t be a change, but it’s the probable launch change.

With your BMWs did the clamping force of the clutches here one change with rpm? It still wouldn’t modulate but I wonder if BMW dumps the clutch harder with lower Rpms and not higher as to prevent harsh engagement and chatter. By dump I mean a hard slip obviously.

At the time, not a lot could be done. I was the 1t to run the dodson clutches, there was not tcu tuning available. the closest option was the DCT GTS software. what it changed, measurably, i do not know. I do know it allowed higher launches, and firmer shifts/more aggressive. But how, i cant say.

I do know even in the base s/w, and i assume GTS s/w, there were sort of 2 types of launch control. The manual way, in gear, all safeties off, max settings etc, hold the shifter forward until a flag appears on dash, mash throttle- release shifter to go. this was the traction was modulated ( again, dont know how) and provided the best performance.

Another way, and I dont reccomend, was to be in gear, ready to go/staged. and stomp the throttle. there was 0 computer intervention in that method, and not sure it was even designed to be done, and more of a "bug" than feature

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[shogun32]

unless there is a significant departure from SOP, the clutches are spring-loaded to open and the servo twists a cam to push the plate forward and 'close' the clutch and thus apply torque to the shaft. Basically the opposite of a motorcycle clutch activation. I don't see how it's such a stretch for Ford to use these standard parts and have the servo change steps (1.2 or 1.8 degrees) in response to chassis and drive-train controller directives.

 

[Darkane]

unless there is a significant departure from SOP, the clutches are spring-loaded to open and the servo twists a cam to push the plate forward and 'close' the clutch and thus apply torque to the shaft. Basically the opposite of a motorcycle clutch activation. I don't see how it's such a stretch for Ford to use these standard parts and have the servo change steps (1.2 or 1.8 degrees) in response to chassis and drive-train controller directives.

So you’re suggesting ford have a phaser on the cam to either advance or retard the cam lobe in real time based on wheel spin, corner exit, and traction?

Yeah I get what you’re saying, but that’s not happening.

The biggest reason this transmission is expensive is because it’s built for high hp and torque. It doesn’t have many fancy features, else tremec would have been touting it, no? Ford is not changing the DCT game, they’re changing the pony car segment with a DCT.

 

[shogun32]

So you’re suggesting ford have a phaser on the cam to either advance or retard the cam lobe in real time based on wheel spin, corner exit, and traction?

Huh? I'm talking about the servo motor(s) that drive the pressure plates in the trans. High torque is accommodated with more plates, stronger clamping force and bigger/wider gears with suitable profile and surface treatments etc. 20 grand (probably more like 1/2 or 2/3 of that) had better be buying a hell of a lot more than just beefier gears.

The 2015 Shelby was a (foolish?) "we're going to show the world Ford can do something nobody sane would have attempted". I expect the DCT was developed with similar attitude - ignoring for the moment it's not remotely new ground. Ricardo and Borg-Warner have been building DCT trans to handle 600-1000ft/lb since at least 2005.

 

[Darkane]

Huh? I'm talking about the servo motor(s) that drive the pressure plates in the trans. High torque is accommodated with more plates, stronger clamping force and biggerwider gears and suitable profile and surface treatments etc. 20 grand (probably more like 1/2 or 2/3 of that) had better be buying a hell of a lot more than beefier gears.

Yes, but we’re talking modulating the servos for clamping force - such as - using the clutches to control wheel spin. No?

Why not keep the servos with the same drive of the plates but use phasers to retard or advance the actuator, if it is on a lobe.

Hard to explain with text. But essentially have a mechanism to retard the force a few degrees to allow modulation of the clutches and plates.

Long short, I was talking about a phaser to adjust the cam lobe the servo is pushing into the clutch. Does that make more sense?

Edit: just read the tremec high torque PDF page they have and it states it’s customizable and manufacturers can adjust it for their feel. Didn’t say anything about modulating clutches and/or controlling wheel spin or putting power down any different when the clutches are fully engaged. Seems like a good, efficient unit however.

 

[shogun32]

sorry, when you said 'phaser and cam' I thought you were talking about the engine intake/exhaust cams. Since that's where those terms come up with regularity. Servos can be as fine-grained as 1.2 degrees of rotation (typical). It'll be driving some kind of mechanical (and hydraulic?) force multiplier (worm + lobed cam?) to provide sufficient clamping force. Yes, I think it's well within reason that Ford could come up with a way to regulate output torque in response to wheel spin and other factors. Granted the mechanical movement of the clamping action between full lockup to slight slip (~20 RPM delta) to major slip (500 rpm delta) to free-wheeling is probably pretty damn small. Though Chevy's electronic-slip diff is somewhat analogous and doesn't cost a mint.

 

[V00D00]

Just so we are clear, because the C8 has been compared (wrongly) to the 2020 GT500

2020 C8
price: $88k (higher than well option non CFTP GT500)
weight: 36xx ( 500lbs less than base GT500)
0-60: 2.8 ~ .5 faster than GT500
1/4mile: 11.2 @122mph ( ~.5ET and 10mph slower than GT500)
Gratton Raceway lap time: 1.26 ( 5 seconds slower than GT500)

And we wonder why they dont compare the GT500 to the Camaro anymore lol

hmm.. seems the Corvette is still only trying to win #s the geriatric crowd cares about

 

[martinjlm]

V00D00 said: ↑
Just so we are clear, because the C8 has been compared (wrongly) to the 2020 GT500

2020 C8
price: $88k (higher than well option non CFTP GT500)
weight: 36xx ( 500lbs less than base GT500)
0-60: 2.8 ~ .5 faster than GT500
1/4mile: 11.2 @122mph ( ~.5ET and 10mph slower than GT500)
Gratton Raceway lap time: 1.26 ( 5 seconds slower than GT500)

And we wonder why they dont compare the GT500 to the Camaro anymore lol

hmm.. seems the Corvette is still only trying to win #s the geriatric crowd cares about

You do realize that you are comparing the base C8 to the top dog Shelby, right? Those last two numbers will more than likely fall to the Grand Sport and Z06. Damn, those geriatric folks get to drive some wicked $#!t.

 

[V00D00]

V00D00 said: ↑
Just so we are clear, because the C8 has been compared (wrongly) to the 2020 GT500

2020 C8
price: $88k (higher than well option non CFTP GT500)
weight: 36xx ( 500lbs less than base GT500)
0-60: 2.8 ~ .5 faster than GT500
1/4mile: 11.2 @122mph ( ~.5ET and 10mph slower than GT500)
Gratton Raceway lap time: 1.26 ( 5 seconds slower than GT500)

And we wonder why they dont compare the GT500 to the Camaro anymore lol


You do realize that you are comparing the base C8 to the top dog Shelby, right? Those last two numbers will more than likely fall to the Grand Sport and Z06. Damn, those geriatric folks get to drive some wicked $#!t.

price AS TESTED was $88k... thats more than a GT500 base+ most options.. i mean, i never said the C8 and GT500 should be compared, but if we are comparing, as Ive stated since both debuts, it will take the Z06/ZR1 to do any harm to the 500, at which point, your in for easyily over 100k, and then ill say, whats it cost to get a 4 seater C8, just to balance the scales

 

[martinjlm]

price AS TESTED was $88k... thats more than a GT500 base+ most options.. i mean, i never said the C8 and GT500 should be compared, but if we are comparing, as Ive stated since both debuts, it will take the Z06/ZR1 to do any harm to the 500, at which point, your in for easyily over 100k, and then ill say, whats it cost to get a 4 seater C8, just to balance the scales

But the same performance can be delivered in a car stickering at just above $67k and still have more content than the $65,600 GT350 I drove last week. I agree that it will take the Z06 to compete with the GT500, but it will likely start in the mid-$80ks, not over $100k. Sure, a Z06 can probably be optioned up over $100k. But so can a GT500.

 

[V00D00]

But the same performance can be delivered in a car stickering at just above $67k and still have more content than the $65,600 GT350 I drove last week. I agree that it will take the Z06 to compete with the GT500, but it will likely start in the mid-$80ks, not over $100k. Sure, a Z06 can probably be optioned up over $100k. But so can a GT500.

I dont get what your saying. the C8 MUST have the $11k option to get those times. and then they added even more options to get those times. SOOOOOO, if you are going to say how awesome the C8 times are, you have to state that as tested, it costs more than the mustang with equal options.

For the life of me, i cant understand why people think a base or even base+handling pack car wont turn fast times either, as if the CFTP is NEEDED to go fast. ITS NOT. its 3 additional/rare parts, that yes, provide benefits, but nothing that would move 1 optioned cars measurable seconds behind a cftp car. the C8 on the otherhand..

please stop changing the goal posts, are we talking a 67k price tag on a 2 different cars now? Let it go, Ford built a C8 killing Mustang, when their target was the DOA Camaro in the corners, and Hellokitty in the straights. Life goes on

and the z06 should be an awesome car, but do not for 1 second you will get the same options for 80k. the automakers jump segments like that on purpose

 

[likeaboss]

I dont get what your saying. the C8 MUST have the $11k option to get those times. and then they added even more options to get those times. SOOOOOO, if you are going to say how awesome the C8 times are, you have to state that as tested, it costs more than the mustang with equal options.

For the life of me, i cant understand why people think a base or even base+handling pack car wont turn fast times either, as if the CFTP is NEEDED to go fast. ITS NOT. its 3 additional/rare parts, that yes, provide benefits, but nothing that would move 1 optioned cars measurable seconds behind a cftp car. the C8 on the otherhand..

please stop changing the goal posts, are we talking a 67k price tag on a 2 different cars now? Let it go, Ford built a C8 killing Mustang, when their target was the DOA Camaro in the corners, and Hellokitty in the straights. Life goes on

and the z06 should be an awesome car, but do not for 1 second you will get the same options for 80k. the automakers jump segments like that on purpose

2020 Corvette C8
1LT Interior
Z51 Performance Package
Magnetic Selective Ride Control
$66,890 gets you the level of performance as shown in the recent reviews and still a better interior than the GT500 and GT350.

It's one heck of a performance bargain and it's only going to get better as the higher performance models come out.

 

[V00D00]

2020 Corvette C8
1LT Interior
Z51 Performance Package
Magnetic Selective Ride Control
$66,890 gets you the level of performance as show in the recent reviews and still a better interior than the GT500 and GT350.

It's one heck of a performance bargain and it's only going to get better as the higher performance models come out.

as tested is $88k per the article, and even then they were not impressed with the hype being higher than the delivery. so if your going to argue, state the facts. interior is mostly opinion, so that debates a wash. so take a 100% base gt500 at 73, and your "bargain" C8 at $67k, there is $6k difference.. but man, that 6k goes a loooooong way in the 1/4 and track times.. and then:

whats a bargain? how fast can i go in laguna seca with car A/B, how fast can i take my family of three to the store with car A/B.. they should not be compared, but since they are. go with what the demographic is. Whats the cost of the optional 4 seater C8?

 

[martinjlm]

I dont get what your saying. the C8 MUST have the $11k option to get those times. and then they added even more options to get those times. SOOOOOO, if you are going to say how awesome the C8 times are, you have to state that as tested, it costs more than the mustang with equal options.

Totally wrong.
Base car at $59,995
Z51 package $5,000
That’s really all you need to get the acceleration times. You can add $1,895 for Magnaride if you want, but that’s not needed to get the 0-60 or 1/4 mile times.

The extra $$$ on the Motor Trend and Car& Driver cars were to option up from 1LT trim to 3LT trim (better leather, alcantera, premium audio, seat upgrades). None of which translates into better times. More mass? probably. Better times? No. I’ve seen people erroneously add $1,095 for Performance Exhaust. But the performance exhaust is included in the Z51 package. The $1,095 is only if you want the exhaust, but not the Z51 package.

For the life of me, i cant understand why people think a base or even base+handling pack car wont turn fast times either, as if the CFTP is NEEDED to go fast. ITS NOT. its 3 additional/rare parts, that yes, provide benefits, but nothing that would move 1 optioned cars measurable seconds behind a cftp car. the C8 on the otherhand..

The C8 is simply the same. The only options that add to the performance of the base car are the Performance Exhaust ($1,095), the Z51 package (which includes the Performance Exhaust, $5,000), and Magna-Ride ($1,895) for track work

please stop changing the goal posts, are we talking a 67k price tag on a 2 different cars now? Let it go, Ford built a C8 killing Mustang, when their target was the DOA Camaro in the corners, and Hellokitty in the straights. Life goes on

I don’t think I’m the one changing goal posts. You are the one that believed it took an $88k version of the C8 to achieve the numbers you quoted. You are clearly wrong. The number is closer to $67k. The other $21k is for interior trim, Performance Data Recorder (not available on Shelby anything), a 2-level seat upgrade, and a bunch of other pieces that do nothing for the performance of the car. I did point out that the $67k number is actually closer to the price tag on the GT350 that I drove and that in that $67k it would also have more content than the GT350 (HUD, heated and ventilated power seats, additional coolers). Mentioning the GT350 was more a matter of convenience, since I just recently had it in my hands. I could have just as well compared it to the base GT500, since that is the subject of this thread.

and the z06 should be an awesome car, but do not for 1 second you will get the same options for 80k. the automakers jump segments like that on purpose.

Neither of us truly knows the answer to that, but if GM continues with their current path of pricing the C8 versions at $5,000 above the C7 version while providing better performance than the C7 version, then you are looking at C8 Z06 in the $80k range. More than the GT500 base, less than the GT500 CFTP

 

[9secondko]

You must realize that the Mustang isn’t a competitor to the Corvette.

One is a Pony Car and the other a Sports Car.
Even the “base” C8 is a new, mid engine car that represents the pinnacle of GM engineering.

The 500 is the top Mustang. a four-seat car that has some compromise built into it by design, like the Camaro. It competes with the Zl1 and Hellcat.

The Corvette is the top everything of GM. It competes with Fords GT, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, etc. and it does so very well and even at a bargain price.

The fact that a trim level of Mustang is beating a hot new Corvette on the track and in the 1320 is saying something big.

And this isn’t the top dog Mustang GT500. It’s not even the carbon fiber track pack.

Plus, we are now seeing the GM pricing bait and switch we talked about come to fruition.

Amazing that a Mustang that starts as a 4 banger also has a supercharged v8 big brother that performs better than The newest Corvette on offer.

I’m sure there will be a supercharged or turbocharged c8 that comes out and costs 100k+ that really shines. It’s very light, has the engine in the back, and uses a pretty sweet DCT. it’s going to be great.

But the GT500 occupying the same territory is amazing.

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