Edelbrock vs Gen 2 Whipple

[Burkey]

Yeah that's really wack...mine are relatively stable from from -2 to +2 with some bigger spikes to 3, but that's normal. I've got the same phenolic spacer you have remember and have no issue, and don't think those would leak either. I'm sorry if this has been asked or stated but have you verified your BAP and pump is working.

No BAP. The pump was fine prior to this install. I guess it could have gone bad, but I’d seriously doubt it. The car quite literally hasn’t run right since the install but it was perfect prior.
I’ve now noticed a few times that when I lift off the pedal, the car wants to continue on for a little while. It really suggests to me that something isn’t right in the tune.
I’ve been there before with the Whipple, using an entirely different tuner. The effect was basically an auto cruise control. Braking would slow the car, but only to the new speed. Clutch in would allow the car to return to idle.
With any luck, I’ll have some results sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the tips.

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[Mcgyver]

Disappointing that a tune could be so far off?

Are you running the same spark plugs as with the whipple? Modern plugs are used as very sensitive knock sensors (they measure the ionic gas conductivity in between spark events). Anyhow thought maybe one of your plugs could be giving off false positives to the ECU.

 

[Burkey]

Disappointing that a tune could be so far off?

Are you running the same spark plugs as with the whipple? Modern plugs are used as very sensitive knock sensors (they measure the ionic gas conductivity in between spark events). Anyhow thought maybe one of your plugs could be giving off false positives to the ECU.

Initially I was using the same plugs (NGK 6510s @ 0.028”), eventually I grabbed a new set and installed them just to be sure that the plugs weren’t a factor.

 

[Roh92cp]

I thought this would be relevant to share here since I think I've found my intermittent knock issue. This cropped up like 2 months ago after having no knock all spring and summer. I usually log WOT every now and then just to see if everything looks good. I started seeing 2-4 degrees of knock from about 4-7k and at 7- 8k it would always go away. So I've been pocking around all over banging on exhaust looking for contact points like motor mounts, A/C lines the usual suspects and found the drivers rear 02 sensor on the top was contacting the tans support bolt. This was not obvious and had been overlooked in the past because there was 3/8" clearance and showed no signs of contact from the eye. Today from underneath with a small mirror I found the contact point and got a pic with my cell phone which fits up there better then my head. So it seems that the twist of the motor was closing the 3/8 gap, but only while the motor was in it's peak torque. My Dyno sheet confirms peak torque starts to drop off around 6k and that's when my knock also starts to drop off because the contact at the 02 sensor starts to decrease and opens back up. Since these are rear 02's and I have them disabled (catless long tubes) I'll just put plugs in there. Still have to get some logs to prove this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Below is a screen shot of the torque curve and the data log. Also provided the full datazap log for those who care to look.

https://datazap.me/u/roh92cp/log-1569186720?log=0&data=2-9

 

[Burkey]

I thought this would be relevant to share here since I think I've found my intermittent knock issue. This cropped up like 2 months ago after having no knock all spring and summer. I usually log WOT every now and then just to see if everything looks good. I started seeing 2-4 degrees of knock from about 4-7k and at 7- 8k it would always go away. So I've been pocking around all over banging on exhaust looking for contact points like motor mounts, A/C lines the usual suspects and found the drivers rear 02 sensor on the top was contacting the tans support bolt. This was not obvious and had been overlooked in the past because there was 3/8" clearance and showed no signs of contact from the eye. Today from underneath with a small mirror I found the contact point and got a pic with my cell phone which fits up there better then my head. So it seems that the twist of the motor was closing the 3/8 gap, but only while the motor was in it's peak torque. My Dyno sheet confirms peak torque starts to drop off around 6k and that's when my knock also starts to drop off because the contact at the 02 sensor starts to decrease and opens back up. Since these are rear 02's and I have them disabled (catless long tubes) I'll just put plugs in there. Still have to get some logs to prove this, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. Below is a screen shot of the torque curve and the data log. Also provided the full datazap log for those who care to look.

https://datazap.me/u/roh92cp/log-1569186720?log=0&data=2-9

I’d say you’re dead-on with that.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Very nice @Burkey! I usually see +12-15F cruising on the highway and +20-25 in city traffic when ambient is circa 90*F. In the mornings I’m usually -4F ambient at startup and +8F or so by the time I get to the highway with ambient of 70*F. I'm not running the spacers, though. Which sensor did you get, plastic or brass?

I'm very similar a little under cold start takes forever to get much past ambient but once i shut it off and it transfers the heat to the.blower or drive enough...I'm 25-30 over ambient.....
Do any tricks?

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

My rattle is different I had the quirks worked out of stage 1, added stage 2..first 0-80 popped the engine it rattled like a uzi full KR and lost 3 cylinders....when it hits bottom of 3rd....
Second engine was fine for 920 miles I didnt get on it then first 0-80....rattled like an UZI full KR...even on the 91 tune with 93....
I added a cat back that helped a little....today I was able to get less rattle after a change I'd rather keep to myself for the time being it rattled lot less and only went KR of 6 and stayed there with 4-5 degrees total timing throughout the run......84lbs min thru MAF seems high for stage 2 ?
I have correlated one thing at then precise moment it shifts to 3rd ( 1st and 2nd clean ) the cat has reached 1565 degrees literally to the frame on the log, the fuel source changes from demand to exhaust temp and at that exact moment it goes full KR and audibly rattles....hard.....then today it ran on out to about 105mph and the cat temps were 2000 degrees....
But every single time including the last engine it hits on a 0 to whatever pulls bottom of 3rd it's like 187kpa ( seen as high as 200kpa.today ), it swaps that fuel slower table to exhaust temp from.demand when it does it changes command from .81 lambda to .74-75 and full KR and rattle in the span of a tenth or so of a.second....
What are you with stage 2 pulley ratios seeing for lbs min thru your MAF? I'm not even in drag mode or TC off.....Stage 1 was as low as 67lbs mine thru MAF in drag mode today I seen 83.75 in Drive....desperate at this point I know the second engine is harmed but it like to figure out the root issue before the 3rd

 

[Burkey]

@Roh92cp
Mine looks more like this...

I'm very similar a little under cold start takes forever to get much past ambient but once i shut it off and it transfers the heat to the.blower or drive enough...I'm 25-30 over ambient.....
Do any tricks?

This is what worries me.
If the temp sensor isn’t reading “true and correct” figures (or at least something vaguely close to it) I’d assume that the air density calcs would be up the shit. To me, that’s part of a bigger issue. The whole model is based around torque tables. Air density is a predictor of torque (in a fashion). I just don’t see how you can ask the system to try and comprehend an ever changing set of goal posts that don’t reflect (even on a linear scale) the actual environment.

As far as heatsoak goes, I still see it happening but to a lesser extent than with the Whipple. The real test will be letting the car sit for an hour or so with the hood up. Hood down doesn’t tell me much because regardless of any measures you might take to prevent the direct transfer of heat (phenolic spacers), the ambient temp under the bonnet is just acting like a convection oven.

 

[Roh92cp]

Not sure if you guys remember this but I've been testing IAT2 post blower temps an I/C water temps Pre/post for a while. I have basically a rolling lab with 2 coolant temps sensors and two IAT2 sensors. The reason for two IAT2 sensors is because the breakout harness used to tap into the MAF is known to not be inaccurate. I can prove this everyday as I have both reading out on my Ngauge, and the difference is as much as 10-20 degrees. Some of you without having another IAT2 sensor to compare seen this inaccuracy yourselves. Think about it, how can you have IAT2 read sub ambient for any amount of time, it just doesn't jive. I'll post a log showing ambient temps (aatf), IAT2 from breakout harness (iatf) and my dedicated I sensor Zeitronix ZT-2 (Zuser2v) to show this.

As far as the phenolic spacer which I've been testing and using since spring. I Have a word document showing comparison testing data I did for Dept of boost (Jason Etter) who will be selling these spacers soon. He wanted me to use a heat soaked motor driving for 30 minutes then park engine running and record data when stopped and then every 5 minutes to see how much heat transfer happens with spacer in place compared to my old data without.

aatf = ambient
iatf = breakout harness IAT2 sensors
zuser2v = Zietronix dedicate AIT2 sensor dead accurate sensor

I'm also posting a shot of my dedicated Intercooler temp sensors and these can be compared with the ETC data also showing when on a cold soaked motor IAT2 data should be same as coolant temp and it does.



https://datazap.me/u/roh92cp/log-1569345807?log=0&data=2-3-4-14-25

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

No sure if you guys remember this but I've been testing IAT2 post blower temps an I/C water temps Pre/post for a while. I have basically a rolling lab with 2 coolant temps sensors and two IAT2 sensors. The reason for two IAT2 sensors is because the breakout harness used to tap into the MAF is known to not be inaccurate. I can prove this everyday as I have both reading out on my Ngauge, and the difference is as much as 10-20 degrees. Some of you without having another IAT2 sensor to compare seen this inaccuracy yourselves. Think about it, how can you have IAT2 read sub ambient for any amount of time, it just doesn't jive. I'll post a log showing ambient temps (aatf), IAT2 from breakout harness (iatf) and my dedicated I sensor Zeitronix ZT-2 (Zuser2v) to show this.

As far as the phenolic spacer which I've been testing and using since spring. I Have a word document showing comparison testing data I did for Dept of boost (Jason Etter) who will be selling these spacers soon. He wanted me to use a heat soaked motor driving for 30 minutes then park engine running and record data when stopped and then every 5 minutes to see how much heat transfer happens with spacer in place compared to my old data without.

Did you use the tapped hold for boost on the driver side to get your additional IAT2 and bring it into like an MPVi 0-5 input? I have a MPVI2 in the car and thought about seeing if I could get a sensor back there with a thermistor small enough for 1/8" NPT.
Trying to figure this out because it looks like its ruined this second engine, in my case it seems to be exhaust temp but if the IAT isnt right then.......
Its related to temp rather than any power because I can choose any gear ( within reason ) and do that gears pull fine zero KR and when it shifts its gonna rattle like and uzi and go full KR.....its like it's time AT WOT then when it shifts with that load it's hot and susceptible and or the AFR is off for that air density.....
I was unfortunately early adopter I got the plastic plug in stage 1 kit and it immediately fueled the absolute crap out of the first engine...I was sitting there and thought it was condensation that cold morning till I realized it wasnt dissipating bahaha it was just wafting to the neighbors yard hehe.....
Does anyone else with Stage 2 get nearly 84lbs min thru the MAF at only 7150rpm not even in drag mode? Wondering if maybe I got the wrong pulley ratio....WHY are my engines detonating!!! Hehe a cat back DID make a difference...but still have rattle from the 91 log on 93+ fuel!!!!!
1st 2nd fine recover into 3rd rattle....start at 3rd low do full pull no rattle in that gear...start in 4th do full pull no rattle...BUT neither of those runs have an inferred cat temp of 2000 degrees either

 

[Roh92cp]

@BlueCollarDaily

I used the 1/8 NPT port on the passenger side and drilled and tapped that for the standard size sensor. Yes the Zietronix ZT-2 user a 0-5v signal input and converts that in the NGauge to a PID reading temps. NGauge is programmed to work with Zeitronix units.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Boom!
And did that show a different temp than the break out?

@BlueCollarDaily

I used the 1/8 NPT port on the passenger side and drilled and tapped that for the standard size sensor. Yes the Zietronix ZT-2 user a 0-5v signal input and converts that in the NGauge to a PID reading temps. NGauge is programmed to work with Zeitronix units.

 

[Roh92cp]

Y

Boom!
And did that show a different temp than the break out?

yes that's what I was trying to explain above. I'm posting the data log now.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Y

yes that's what I was trying to explain above. I'm posting the data log now.

Thanks gonna be awesome info

 

[Roh92cp]

Thanks gonna be awesome info

I edited the post and now has the data log. Keep in mind the is a cold soaked motor on startup. I can post another log to show was it looks like warmed as well.

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