Tire warmers for rears to prevent heat cycling out

[MikeR397]

I get 4-5 days on front Cup 2s with -2.8 camber before chording. Nothing to do about that. The rears however had ~40% tread left after 8 or 9 days but heat cycled out and slid around like crazy. Would using tire warmers between track sessions prevent 5 heat cycles a day and instead work like just 1 cycle and let me get up to 15 track days before chording rears?

I’m not sure it would work that great, I can start at 27 psi when chilly in fall mornings and get up to 40 psi after the first session, and tires will burn your hand to touch. I’m not sure the warmers will do enough to prevent a heat cycle. Also, jacking the rear up 4 times a day is a pita and I suppose 8 days is fine otherwise. Just curious if anyone is doing something like this?

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[slikk66]

I just signed up today for my first HPDE event in the gt350 for November (have done about 12 track days total previously). Was planning to run the stock cup2s.. haven't heard anything yet about this heat cycling stuff :/ i'll be following this

 

[honeybadger]

Rotatable tire setup fixes all this

 

[BillyJRacing]

It won't do anything.

If you're getting that uneven tire wear front to rear, look at your driving and see what you're doing that is increasing the front tire wear (because of understeer) and what you can do to drive the car with less understeer (trail-brake more, coast to let the car rotate, etc...). It sounds like your driving inputs are probably causing the excess front wear.

 

[jmn444]

It won't do anything.

If you're getting that uneven tire wear front to rear, look at your driving and see what you're doing that is increasing the front tire wear (because of understeer) and what you can do to drive the car with less understeer (trail-brake more, coast to let the car rotate, etc...). It sounds like your driving inputs are probably causing the excess front wear.

Hmmm. maybe I suck too, but seems like a very common problem in these cars to wear the fronts much quicker than the rears... I mean, i can run slower laps and make them all last forever but that's not really fun....

how many days/hours are you getting out of your setup w/o rotating front to back???? lap times?? what tracks??

 

[BillyJRacing]

Hmmm. maybe I suck too, but seems like a very common problem in these cars to wear the fronts much quicker than the rears... I mean, i can run slower laps and make them all last forever but that's not really fun....

I wouldn't say that, and you shouldn't feel that way either.

If you have a balanced car and drive understeer into it with your inputs, the fronts will wear faster. Likewise, if you drive to create oversteer, the rears will wear faster. Driving properly will result in more even tire wear (front to rear). Your driving has a lot to do with the balance of the car.

Often beginners (and even fast amateurs) are taught the safe 'club racing' style of doing all of your braking in a straight line, don't trail brake, and to get back to throttle at turn-in and use maintenance throttle through the corner (causing safe understeer). Doing this reduces your chances of spinning or losing control, but it's slow.

The problem with this, is as people start driving faster and really push their cars to the limit, this driving style is the limitation. When they start to modify their cars to reduce this driver-induced understeer, they do go faster, because you're balancing out the car for the understeer you're causing behind the wheel with your inputs. Once these people learn to trail brake and become better drivers, they often find their setup changes now make for an unstable, and often slower car.

The GT350 is a very balanced car in stock form with the track alignment settings. Especially with a little more front camber than what's in the supplement. If you're having major understeer problems, it may be because of your driving inputs. Assuming you didn't change the wheels or tires that can cause a big balance change.

If you do track days and are interested in advancing your skills, these are must-reads:

https://motoiq.com/driver-development-car-control/

https://motoiq.com/driver-development-learning-processes/


-Billy

how many days/hours are you getting out of your setup w/o rotating front to back????

When driven at the limit, you'll rarely get more than 100-150 miles out of a set of tires. That's fairly universal for GT350 bespoke PSS, Cup2, GT350R Cup 2, Porsche GT3s on Cup 2s, Ford GTs, McLaren MP4, 675, Ferrari 458, 488, GT4 & GT3 racecars on racing slicks, etc..)

 

[Andy13186]

my rears last like 1/4th or less of the time/miles of the fronts lol. I dont track drive and just rip rolling burnouts daily though

 

[slikk66]

If you do track days and are interested in advancing your skills, these are must-reads:

https://motoiq.com/driver-development-car-control/

https://motoiq.com/driver-development-learning-processes/

Thanks - I'll definitely be reading these!

 

[MikeR397]

I wouldn't say that, and you shouldn't feel that way either.

If you have a balanced car and drive understeer into it with your inputs, the fronts will wear faster. Likewise, if you drive to create oversteer, the rears will wear faster. Driving properly will result in more even tire wear (front to rear). Your driving has a lot to do with the balance of the car.

Often beginners (and even fast amateurs) are taught the safe 'club racing' style of doing all of your braking in a straight line, don't trail brake, and to get back to throttle at turn-in and use maintenance throttle through the corner (causing safe understeer). Doing this reduces your chances of spinning or losing control, but it's slow.

The problem with this, is as people start driving faster and really push their cars to the limit, this driving style is the limitation. When they start to modify their cars to reduce this driver-induced understeer, they do go faster, because you're balancing out the car for the understeer you're causing behind the wheel with your inputs. Once these people learn to trail brake and become better drivers, they often find their setup changes now make for an unstable, and often slower car.

The GT350 is a very balanced car in stock form with the track alignment settings. Especially with a little more front camber than what's in the supplement. If you're having major understeer problems, it may be because of your driving inputs. Assuming you didn't change the wheels or tires that can cause a big balance change.

If you do track days and are interested in advancing your skills, these are must-reads:

https://motoiq.com/driver-development-car-control/

https://motoiq.com/driver-development-learning-processes/


-Billy


When driven at the limit, you'll rarely get more than 100-150 miles out of a set of tires. That's fairly universal for GT350 bespoke PSS, Cup2, GT350R Cup 2, Porsche GT3s on Cup 2s, Ford GTs, McLaren MP4, 675, Ferrari 458, 488, GT4 & GT3 racecars on racing slicks, etc..)

Appreciate this post and explanation.

I am not getting understeer at all and am extremely happy with how my R behaves. I do trail brake and it rotates beautifully in the corners. I tracked my Ferrari 360 for 2 years and a 996 turbo a few times and got more even tire wear, but those cars are mid and rear engined. The gt350 is incredibly well balanced but there is still a giant engine sitting on the front axel; hard braking nose dives the front end and the front tires do the work scrubbing off speed, falling away off camber corners like turn 3 at grattan also target front tire wear. A lot of it is also track dependent and how your street use is. On the street it’s the opposite, rears go much faster, particularly if you are doing burn outs or power slides. My R is pretty much commute to race track, rip on track, drive home.

A rotatable setup is also a good idea, I just don’t love spacers and had bad results with rubbing. I have a full set of spare cf wheels, so that solves most issues for me otherwise.

Always open to learning, appreciate the links and will check them out.

 

[honeybadger]

I'd listen closely to Billy. Outside of being a race winning, currently employed factory driver for Ford - he helped develop the car

 

[jmn444]

hahaha, i'm assuming billy johnson then?

somehow i missed that even though i JUST asked him for brake pad bias advice this afternoon lmao.....

I'm not that good at trail braking... my times improved by being on the throttle sooner after turn in, but maybe i will read those articles and see if theres some tire wear benefits in changing my driving

 

[jmn444]

Ok... my take away from those articles is that I'm underdeveloped... I rarely trail brake...

I also avoid rain days like the plague due to an off I had on my 1st rain day....

I'll have to make some decisions about risk vs reward of pushing the car in a different way but it def makes sense to me to change my style as I haven't picked up any time all season.

My question though.... does this really extend tire life??? My assumption is that I'll likely just end up faster with both ends wearing out as fast as the fronts currently do IF I actually learn how to balance the car more evenly...

 

[honeybadger]

hahaha, i'm assuming billy johnson then?

somehow i missed that even though i JUST asked him for brake pad bias advice this afternoon lmao.....

I'm not that good at trail braking... my times improved by being on the throttle sooner after turn in, but maybe i will read those articles and see if theres some tire wear benefits in changing my driving

Those solid axle cars tend to be a bit more slide-y and I found I have far less understeer with them. Brake, turn and throttle. However, in my GT350 I fight understeer more because of exactly Billy said. Off the brakes too early, back on throttle too early, etc.

It might help extend life a bit, but my understanding of Billy's statements are less that it will extend life and more that's it's an indicator of room for driving improvement when your car is neutral but you're wearing tires unevenly.

 

[jmn444]

Yeah I'm mostly talking about my 350 too... the old mustang isnt all that fast for other reasons lol

 

[JAJ]

...Driving properly will result in more even tire wear (front to rear). Your driving has a lot to do with the balance of the car.

Often beginners (and even fast amateurs) are taught the safe 'club racing' style of doing all of your braking in a straight line, don't trail brake, and to get back to throttle at turn-in and use maintenance throttle through the corner (causing safe understeer)...

The car club where I started track driving outsourced their training to a group of professional endurance racers who'd set up a racing school. They didn't teach a "school line"; rather, they focused on technique. It was all about how to use the throttle, the brakes and the steering wheel to move the car fast without drama and without burning through mountains of tires and brake pads. It was all about rhythm and balance.

Which is probably why I get great tire life, regardless of which tires I'm using. For me, it's all about counting heat cycles - I've always got tread left when the rubber times out. I've never corded a tire in my life.

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