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frank s

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I'm not real clear, even after a 61-post thread, what is "soul" in an automobile. Seems to me, after not much careful analysis and consulting the various automuses, that the essence of Soul lies not in the physical machinery, nor even in the humming being contemplating this mystery, but in the place where they meet and integrate. A place that can shift from second to second.

The world's best home-run hitter is just an overpaid kid with a stick until the equally overpaid kid with the horsehide sends it to its fated meeting, bat on ball. Not every such contact shows a spurt of Soul, but when they do, they are often easily recognizable among the many possibilities.

So I can drive my GT in either of the (Soulful, non-soulful) worlds in good conscience, always alert at some level to the varying likelihoods of sensing Soul and not. To reiterate an earlier observation, when I was together with my 1966 Lotus Elan, the chances were very high that together we would cause an evocation of Soul. The two potentials, the Elan's and mine. might exist in isolation from one another, and their coming-together pulse in its probabilities, but the underlying Soul-melding circumstances are much closer together in some cars than others. With Soul close to the surface in both car and driver, wonders abound. If either doesn't bring essential elements to the mix. meh.
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boB

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Here are two links that help define soul as applied to a vehicle. Watch how hard Fangio is working the Maserati even though he would be passed by a base 2019 Mustang. But no question, the old Mas has SOUL, it's a real drivers car.. Then read how a Honda minivan trounced two iconic sports cars but it sure has no soul.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...EBC2B8804F52DC6C9A93EBC2B8804F52DC6&FORM=VIRE

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/soccer-moms-revenge/

"Sports cars—whether they be our 356 or XKE, or a TR3 or an MR2 or an MX-5—are about making the driver feel like he or she is the coolest person on the planet, even if only for a little while. Sports cars aren’t about getting somewhere to have an experience, they are an experience, every time the key is turned.

Go on a trip in the Odyssey, and you’ll remember the destination; go on a trip in a sports car, and you’ll remember the drive."
 

bnightstar

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"Sports cars—whether they be our 356 or XKE, or a TR3 or an MR2 or an MX-5—are about making the driver feel like he or she is the coolest person on the planet, even if only for a little while. Sports cars aren’t about getting somewhere to have an experience, they are an experience, every time the key is turned.

Go on a trip in the Odyssey, and you’ll remember the destination; go on a trip in a sports car, and you’ll remember the drive."
The share fact that they decided to put this Minivan against 35 years old cars proves that this Minivan can't do the task in question. In fact if you get a 944 or the first 911 in the same contest the Honda Odyssey will be dead in the water. But everyone on the planet recognise a Mustang a 911 or XKE or 356 but no one besides the owners knows a Honda Odyssey.
 

The_Phantom

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Very interesting thread. Lots of good replies and ideas as to what "soul" means in a car.

Let me explain what my interpretation of a car with "soul" is:

Firstly, it's not the creaks, squeaks, and rattles you may think of when you think of older cars. Those are characteristics....intrinsic qualities that make the car special, but do not give it a soul. I've owned a ton of cars in my life...almost 100 so far at 38 years old. In my opinion, an automobile with a soul is one that creates a special feeling that the driver can not ignore. As an example, I once owned a 2014 Chevy Impala LS. Spacious car, decent power. BUT... rental car boring interior, no engine noise, no drama, no great handling. It is a great example of where a gear head would go to die basically. Totally bland, the automotive equivalent of vanilla. Sure, it was functional and would get you A to B no problem. But it was a tool...nothing more, nothing less. If GM stopped selling them all the day after I bought mine, I wouldn't care because there are a whole bunch of other cars out there that are just metal and rubber mated together to roll down asphalt stretches to work, home, shopping, etc. None of them ignite a fire in the driver's gut. I spent most of my time in the car thinking of activities I would be enjoying once I arrived at my destination, since the art of travelling between two points was pure chore and boredom...a moment in time not worth a second thought.

Now, switch gears. I also have owned three Terminator Cobras in my life. A Terminator is a perfect example of a car that has "soul". It's a car that's larger than life. Everyone knows what it is, even people who don't like Mustangs. It is literally a show stopper. Gear heads respect it and Mustang guys can identify one with Borla Stingers from a mile away. When I drove that car, I did not think about where I was going or what I was going to do when I got there. I turned the key and literally got lost in the experience of driving the car. Instead of thinking about what to do when I got to point B, I began thinking about ways to take that would maximize my travel distance between points. Sure, the interior was typical Ford for the time....mostly plastic, though the seats were nice. But what made the car have "soul" to me was the total package you got in the car. You have the unmistakable whine of the supercharger, the beautiful exhaust tone, the responsive steering. It was a car that you drove because you loved cars...not because you had somewhere to go. It wasn't a tool. I could have parked my Impala in the front spot at Target and not even looked back. But my Cobra? Furthest spot out, looking over my shoulder at it the whole way. Why? Technically, they are both machines designed to do the same thing, right? They traveled down the same roads, did the same speed limits, had four tires, etc. So why would I care more about one than the other? Heck, the Impala was more expensive too.

One word: soul. I knew if something happened to that Impala, I could replace it. Insurance would cover it and I would eventually replace it with another tool to do the job. But the Cobra.....to me it would be impossible to replace. It was metal and rubber, but it may as well have been a living, breathing flesh and blood member of the family.

I feel the same way about my new '19. The look, the sound, the handling, everything all taken in together makes it a great package. It creates that fun factor that is missing from so many of today's commuter cars. My wife's Camry? It is extremely reliable, styled well, and will likely keep on running well after my Mustang has started having major issues. And you know what? I'm ok with that. Because the Camry sits outside under the pine trees and birds nests until she's ready to go to work in the morning. And when it wears out, it will be replaced with another Camry likely in the same color. No loss.

My '19 GT/CS though? I park it across from the trees, keep it shined up, and it rests in it's parking spot. Why do I care so much for it? Because of that four letter word we all have been talking about here....soul. A car either has it, or it just doesn't. And I'd bet anyone who read this gets exactly what I'm saying.
 

BrianGT2015

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What makes a car have soul. To me a car that wants to kill you if you push her too hard that's soul. I had a built 2005 Mustang GT shooting a bunch of nitrous through it. Set up for drag racing. The suspension was stiff the steering was crappy she had really big cams suck driving on the street loud she was obnoxious she was a headache. But I love that car with every bit of my heart. I had a 2003 Cobra that thing was a beast. Loud obnoxious nice loud supercharger scream. She wanted to be beat on also as much as you can and she would take more and more and more. That's soul for a vehicle right their. Now I got a 2015 GT 6 Speed manual car. Me and her still feeling each other out at the moment. Right now I still haven't seen her true side her true soul. The 15 so far she seems a lot more forgiving. She seems like the type of car who wants to take care of you as you go around them corners at a high rate of speed. She seems like the type that's going to take care of you when you lose traction. We'll find out. The 2015 she feels like more of a guardian angel. She's a lot sweeter.
 

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Had a 2012 401a 3.73 6MT coupe. Sold it to buy the 18 A10 vert for the wife. I know in every quantifiable way, the 18 is a better faster car, but I don’t love driving it like the 2012. There is no drama. The 18 is fast but doesn’t feel that fast somehow. The 12 was always trying to kill me, and there’s a certain satisfaction in taming the beast and extracting 99% of the performance out of it without going over 1.2% and wrapping it around a tree. The new car will never bite unless you disable everything. I also think the 401a two tone interior in the S197 just felt more special with the raised pony logos on the door panels, two tone leather, billet shifter, etc. 401a now is just more of an option package. The visual differences are way too subtle over 400a.

Maybe it has something to do with our place in life when we bought the cars too. We couldn’t really afford the 12. It was a real stretch to buy it, and I think that makes you appreciate a car more.

Seriously considered picking up a 13/14 GT500 before getting the 18. Maybe someday I’ll have the room for another Mustang and we can have both. I’m sure one of those would definitely be dramatic. Lol
I can relate to this because that's how I still feel about the 2007 GT that started all this for me.

It had a different feel to it that the 2010 GT and two 2018 GTs which followed it have lacked.

I don't know if it was the more raw driving experience, or the dream that the 2005 brochure started during my senior year of high school that same year. Worked hard through college and beyond to make that dream a reality in June of 2011.

Miss that car.
 

Norm Peterson

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I can relate to this because that's how I still feel about the 2007 GT that started all this for me.

It had a different feel to it that the 2010 GT and two 2018 GTs which followed it have lacked.

I don't know if it was the more raw driving experience, or the dream that the 2005 brochure started during my senior year of high school that same year. Worked hard through college and beyond to make that dream a reality in June of 2011.

Miss that car.
So in other words, less soul/no soul is what you end up with when refinement is taken too far.

When too many of the rough edges and too much from the less tangible aspects of ownership get distilled out in the name of "progress".


Norm
 

barron64

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I don't think you can have a vehicle with soul without the said vehicle having a personality trait...Something that sets it apart, in a good way, from other similar vehicles. Years ago when I regulary rode motorcycles with my friends, everybody was constantly trying to have the fastest bike in roll on races. We had a mix of all the fast liter bikes at the time. One of my buddies bought a Honda Blackbird which at the time was competing for the title of the fastest bike with the Kawasaki ZX-11. The Honda was smooth, fast and boring. The Kawasaki on the otherhand was a beast, from the induction sound from the ram air, to the power delivery, it felt like you were barely in control trying to keep the front end down all the time. Even blipping the throttle sitting still, it just sounded mean. Funny thing though they were similar in performance. Honda did not stay around long. Too much refinement, can make a vehicle feel sterile and cold.
 

DuRsT

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I don't think you can have a vehicle with soul without the said vehicle having a personality trait...Something that sets it apart, in a good way, from other similar vehicles. Years ago when I regulary rode motorcycles with my friends, everybody was constantly trying to have the fastest bike in roll on races. We had a mix of all the fast liter bikes at the time. One of my buddies bought a Honda Blackbird which at the time was competing for the title of the fastest bike with the Kawasaki ZX-11. The Honda was smooth, fast and boring. The Kawasaki on the otherhand was a beast, from the induction sound from the ram air, to the power delivery, it felt like you were barely in control trying to keep the front end down all the time. Even blipping the throttle sitting still, it just sounded mean. Funny thing though they were similar in performance. Honda did not stay around long. Too much refinement, can make a vehicle feel sterile and cold.
Have seen the same said about Honda's for years now. Having always been a Honda guy I can understand the thought behind it.

I did have an R1 for awhile, that thing was kind of quirky with some crazy unpredictable handling characteristics in comparison to the Hondas I had always had, but it was indeed a screamer. Just took a lot more effort and mental viglance to keep the shiny side up in comparison to my 1000RR's.
 

Andy13186

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Have seen the same said about Honda's for years now. Having always been a Honda guy I can understand the thought behind it.

I did have an R1 for awhile, that thing was kind of quirky with some crazy unpredictable handling characteristics in comparison to the Hondas I had always had, but it was indeed a screamer. Just took a lot more effort and mental viglance to keep the shiny side up in comparison to my 1000RR's.
I had a 2006 1000rr and I loved the predictability, thats exactly what I wanted from a literbike lol. I had a R1 for 1 day before the cbr1000rr and all the controls seemed wayyy too sensitive. Anyway I sold the cbr1000rr about 8 years ago because I had too many close calls
 
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DuRsT

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I had a 2006 1000rr and I loved the predicitability, thats exactly what I wanted from a literbike lol. I had a R1 for 1 day before the cbr1000rr and all the controls seemed wayyy too sensitive. Anyway I sold the cbr1000rr about 8 years ago because I had too many close calls
Yeah, same here man. I loved the feeling, but got it sideways a couple of times, drifted when I didn't mean to, etc. and knew it was time to move on. Got a Yamaha Raider and loved it for awhile, now I just tinker Darth Haulsass.
 

Loki-GT

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My vintage cars and bikes (think pre-smog years) have soul.

They creak, rattle, squeak, and stink of fuel and oil. They make fantastic engine noises. The driving experience is, um, lacking due to terrible suspension tech and brakes. They require knowledge of each's individual quirks to even get them running. And their great styling always incites thumbs up, honks, and waves whereas my '15 Mustang is invisible. I love them.

I agree to a certain extent with the OP's friend, but prefer to call newer cars refined....the OP's friend's car has no more soul than a late-model.
My 1969 SS 396 Chevelle always got thumbs up from people and nice remarks, my '18 Crimson GT gets easily the same amount of attention, at stop lights people open their windows and talk to me, I get thumbs up all the time and at gas stations people come up to it to see it, perhaps the color is the draw because people comment on it. My '69 has a different kind of soul but in my mind all performance cars have soul.
 

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My 86 has soul, tons of blood, sweat, and tears.......doing the work your self, forges a bit of “you” into the car.
 

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My 17 has a little bit of soul. I do all the work to her, myself also, so as she matures, she may have more soul.
 

accel

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Too much refinement, can make a vehicle feel sterile and cold.
That's how I felt towards BMW I owned before.

Okay, I did not have M car. I had 328i that still had Ultimate Driving Machine in its window sticker, I6 and all that.

I got it with sport package, manual transmission and minimum bells and whistles - for pure driving enjoyment, and, also hoping that the less options the car has, the less things will break.

After a short period of euphoria I started noticing how boring the car actually was. I removed clutch delay valve which made clutch feel like proper clutch. Nothing could be done to improve manual transmission or steering feel. Next, irritated by camry like engine sound inside the car, I replaced exhaust with BMW performance exhaust. Next on the line was accelerometer pedal enhancer. But those tweaks could not hide that global, over-refined, boring, politically correct nature of the car. Disappointment was accumulating. I was not willing to forgive stupid and expensive for no reason repairs.

I took it to autoX a couple of times and could not make it rotate. My previous fwd was more fun to autox.

One day, by accident I got rental s550 v6 and man this generation of Mustang does have something! And even rental version was an immediate pleasure to enjoy!

I sold BMW very soon. I realized it was not the ultimate driving machine.

I eventually bought a GT instead of v6, but that was another story.

P.S. I rented previous generation of a mustang as well, but that one was not as good. Not in a rental form at least.
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