Red Flag

[Deleted member]

As a freedom loving individual no, but as driving a vehicle is a privilege (not a right) then I can deal with it.





Death penalties are really the only thing that would make a potential murderer pause at all and I am not sure even then.

We are too soft as a society to really put any fear into a would-be killer. If society would allow for public painful executions then perhaps some of the partly sane individuals might pause.

Agreed, and i dont believe in parole for a murderer either. You kill someone you lose everything period, no re entering society no matter how long or how "changed" they are. I think if being drawn and quartered was still a thing it might dissuade a few people.

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[HoosierDaddy]

Death penalties are really the only thing that would make a potential murderer pause at all and I am not sure even then.

Yeah, most want or at least expect to die in the process.

Attempted suicide is the only crime I am in favor of the death penalty.

But if death sentences exist as a deterrence, then we should also have levels of prison accommodations based on crime/circumstance. I would be deterred more by the possibility of decades of A/C set at 90 in the summer and 60 in the winter, food with artificial shit flavoring, no TV (or only CNN), etc.. than execution.

Better yet, let Elon send them to Mars. That concept didn't work out all that bad for Australia.

 

[LMS5400]

We're not a soft society at all. We're the most murderous society in the first world. Our criminal justice system is not helping. Lets try some news ideas rather than old "punish them harder" tropes. In mid evil times we drew and quartered people. There is a reason we don't anymore. Because the year is later than that year .. .duh.

"Studies show no link between the presence or absence of the death penalty and murder rates."

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/deterrence

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

We're not a soft society at all. We're the most murderous society in the first world. Our criminal justice system is not helping. Lets try some news ideas rather than old "punish them harder" tropes. In mid evil times we drew and quartered people. There is a reason we don't anymore. Because the year is later than that year .. .duh.

"Studies show no link between the presence or absence of the death penalty and murder rates."

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/deterrence

May not be a deterrent, but if the guilty are dead, they at least, won't commit another crime. Good enough for me.

 

[Interceptor]

So you don't believe that the current laws do anything? You don't believe that if citizens had access to actual military spec weapons, we wouldn't see more death? You don't believe that if we had absolutely no restrictions to purchasing a gun, you wouldn't see more issues?[/QUOTE]
No I do not think the current laws, or any news law, will do anything to stop a person bent on evil.

 

[Timeless]

We're not a soft society at all. We're the most murderous society in the first world. Our criminal justice system is not helping. Lets try some news ideas rather than old "punish them harder" tropes. In mid evil times we drew and quartered people. There is a reason we don't anymore. Because the year is later than that year .. .duh.

"Studies show no link between the presence or absence of the death penalty and murder rates."

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/deterrence

Pretty sure if you remove Chicago and Baltimore the statistics change dramatically.

Personally I believe if everyone carried you'd find a lot less of these problems. It is no coincidence most of these happen in 'gun free' zones. If someone has a weapon and knows everyone else around them has weapons it becomes much more difficult to start shooting unhindered.

 

[carcinoid]

There are too many points to quote so I’m just going to list my points below. Feel free to respond. I like discussing these matters.

1) Someone said that it’s fine to make gun ownership inconvenient and troublesome. As long as you feel it’s fine to apply that tactic to other constitutionally protected things like abortion, we can talk about that point.
2) Someone said that “maybe” the Daytona shooter might have hurt less had “assault weapons” been banned. First, that’s conjecture on your point, nothing more. Second, the VT shooter used pistols to murder dozens. If there’s a will, there’s a way.
3) You could more easily hide two “California compliant” pistols with 20 magazines more easily than an AR with two magazines.
4) These shootings are deadly because of WHERE they take place- fish in a barrel places. Crowds packed in shoulder to shoulder with no where to run, bars without sufficient exits, classrooms with no exits, etc.
5) I don’t have a philosophical objection to the death penalty. I DO have a practical one. It almost never happens, when it does it takes decades, families are dragged through court for years, it costs taxpayers millions and millions, etc... and it’s still not a deterrent. Just get rid of it.
6) As far as gun “buy backs”, that’s a lie. The government can’t buy back what it never owned. It’s nothing less than confiscation.
7) I see no issue with universal background checks.
8) We are not the “only” country with shootings. Not by a long shot. The most frequently quoted, and now debunked, anti-gun paper only searched English speaking news sources. So of course it would skew to make the US look bad. That was by design.
9) Grouping all firearms deaths under the scary umbrella of “gun violence” tries to make suicides seem like murder. A vast majority of those deaths are suicide. And the two other categories that make up the bulk are law enforcement involved shootings and gang shootings. True random killings are actually pretty rare.
10) I live in a state where everyone has guns. AR rifles are commonplace. Nearly half the population has a concealed carry permit and those who carry don’t hide it. Conservative, liberal, gay, straight, black, white, gender-queer two-spirited, I’ve seen them all at the range. Our gun violence rate is extremely low. If it was just the gun’s fault we’d all be dead. And the majority of the gun crimes here are committed by people who were already banned from firearm ownership or were involved in drugs.

 

[Hack]

There are too many points to quote so I’m just going to list my points below. Feel free to respond. I like discussing these matters.

1) Someone said that it’s fine to make gun ownership inconvenient and troublesome. As long as you feel it’s fine to apply that tactic to other constitutionally protected things like abortion, we can talk about that point.

Abortion is not protected by the constitution.

I think a better analogy is making free speech inconvenient, which the left in America is also busy doing. Free speech is definitely protected in some official American government document.

 

[carcinoid]

Abortion is not protected by the constitution.

I think a better analogy is making free speech inconvenient, which the left in America is also busy doing. Free speech is definitely protected in some official American government document.

I actually think abortion is abhorrent, but as of now it is regarded and treated as constitutionally protected under the Roe V Wade decision and is often a hot-button issue for those pushing gun control and confiscation so that’s the analogy I used.

 

[Hack]

I actually think abortion is abhorrent, but as of now it is regarded and treated as constitutionally protected under the Roe V Wade decision and is often a hot-button issue for those pushing gun control and confiscation so that’s the analogy I used.

I understand why you used the abortion analogy, but the constitution doesn't have anything in it to support abortion. Abortion is a great example of legal activism and how certain judges ignore the law, though.

 

[LMS5400]

Pretty sure if you remove Chicago and Baltimore the statistics change dramatically.

Personally I believe if everyone carried you'd find a lot less of these problems. It is no coincidence most of these happen in 'gun free' zones. If someone has a weapon and knows everyone else around them has weapons it becomes much more difficult to start shooting unhindered.

this is the old more guns less gun problems trope..... nah bro.

so, we have 400,000,000 guns and you are suggesting more? If you worked in my industry you would be adding a compound to kill bacteria and when its not effective, you would just say, okay add more! Eventually it would work but at a toxicity level that would kill the host. We don't need a high dose of a low efficacy drug to cure our disease. We need a better drug!

Also, its factually inaccurate that Chicago and Baltimore are gun free zones. There are tons of guns there and the NRA would love to have you believing that gun control does not work -- the problem is its in the NRA's interest to have people buy guns because the gun industry runs them. It's about money, not safety.

Requiring a license for any semi automatic type of weapon makes sense. I had to go thru a background check and an in person interview just so I didn't have to take my shoes off to board a plane. We can at least do this sort of thing for people that are hell bent on owning a device designed to kill other people.

 

[LMS5400]

Its back to school time kids!

 

[Timeless]

blah blah blah

Basically everything you said implies that more regulations will stop criminals...IE criminals will follow the new laws.

Criminals are criminals for a reason. All you would be doing is infringing upon an American right and making law abiding citizens less safe.

 

[Grintch]

We're not a soft society at all. We're the most murderous society in the first world. Our criminal justice system is not helping. Lets try some news ideas rather than old "punish them harder" tropes. In mid evil times we drew and quartered people. There is a reason we don't anymore. Because the year is later than that year .. .duh.

"Studies show no link between the presence or absence of the death penalty and murder rates."

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/deterrence

I love this trend. That data says we have the most guns, and below average murder rates (the top 20 gun ownership countries all have below average murder rates). Conclusion, let throw out all the data we don't like and only consider only "first world" rates.

Secondary problem is the US has the most racial, ethnic, religious, and political diversity of any country. Put a bunch of people who don't agree on god, society, rights, etc. and what do you get? Conflict. Unfortunately some of this conflict gets violent. It is surprising that the US murders rates are below average given that diversity and the associated inherent disagreements, and a triumph of rights, freedom, and justice that it is despite our melting pot society.

 

[carcinoid]

this is the old more guns less gun problems trope..... nah bro.

so, we have 400,000,000 guns and you are suggesting more? If you worked in my industry you would be adding a compound to kill bacteria and when its not effective, you would just say, okay add more! Eventually it would work but at a toxicity level that would kill the host. We don't need a high dose of a low efficacy drug to cure our disease. We need a better drug!

Also, its factually inaccurate that Chicago and Baltimore are gun free zones. There are tons of guns there and the NRA would love to have you believing that gun control does not work -- the problem is its in the NRA's interest to have people buy guns because the gun industry runs them. It's about money, not safety.

Requiring a license for any semi automatic type of weapon makes sense. I had to go thru a background check and an in person interview just so I didn't have to take my shoes off to board a plane. We can at least do this sort of thing for people that are hell bent on owning a device designed to kill other people.

This is completely false and you have no idea what you are talking about. I LIVED the Chicago life and worked criminal justice there. The concealed carry laws make it nearly impossible for law-abiding citizens to have a gun anywhere. There are no shooting ranges there. There's no where to buy a gun. No where to buy ammo. Everything is out in a far suburb. Illinois ALREADY HAS GUN PERMIT LAWS. It's called a FOID card. It makes no difference to criminals. Almost all of the seized guns are illegally purchased or stolen or smuggled. Or purchased through a "clean guy" in the gang who won't get his hands dirty in order to supply the others with firearms.

The fact you call for "semi automatic type of weapon" permits demonstrates you don't know much about guns. There are revolvers that are far more powerful than most semi auto handguns. You just picked up on a buzzword. And if just the guns were the problem the 400,000,000 million already in circulation surely would have killed us all by now.

I now live out west where almost everyone has a firearm. At least 50% of the people I work with carry daily. There are dozens of gun stores and ranges and outdoor shooting venues and the crime is very very low.

Pardon the angry tone but someone from Berkeley snapping back with an undeserved holier-than-thou attitude about a subject he knows NOTHING about in an area he's never served kind of ticks me off.

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